Help with tig catfish

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
thebiggerthebetter said:
And we could not be more appreciative. Still, a strive to sort out and deepen what's already learned should be a good thing and a natural consequence.



Atlantic silverside is a seafood. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_silverside I am not saying you should or should not feed it to your tig.

-- T1 and Co would say no from their experience (which I struggle to rationalize but that does not deny or even diminish their finding - it just needs to be explained why).

-- The other camp would say we did it and had no problems, neither should you (the above explanation would ideally explain why these folk's experience possibly differed).

-- My straw man proposal / explanation is that this is about crustaceans, not seafood. Too much crustaceans in a young tig's diet (50%-100%?) and, hence, vitamin B1 deficiency, if the diet is lagging behind in supplying enough B1 or the tigs are particularly sensitive to the thiaminase in crustaceans. Just a hunch. Feel free to shoot it down.
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It's the salt content or the fact that small tig would be eating small bits of food in the wild not big chunks of salty meat

I have stated before in the past its a digestion problem which makes the tig look puffy and the spin in loops this spinning tells me they are trying to poop something out or be sick do get rid of the problem

I have never cut one open to see the problem but I have got a old pic on my ox I will try to drag out


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T1KARMANN said:
It's the salt content or the fact that small tig would be eating small bits of food in the wild not big chunks of salty meat

I have stated before in the past its a digestion problem which makes the tig look puffy and the spin in loops this spinning tells me they are trying to poop something out or be sick do get rid of the problem

I have never cut one open to see the problem but I have got a old pic on my ox I will try to drag out
Click to expand...

Thank you, T1. Spinning may be related to things other than bowel movement or an attempt to regurgitate. Brain / central nervous system compromise could do it.

Yeah, post-mortum analysis could have shed good light.

Going back to the explanations. If we suppose your hunch is correct, is it only observed with tigs? Because if it is only the tigs + salt in sea foods, it looks weak because I/we feed plenty of sea foods to ALL kinds of young f/w fish, including Pims and specifically brachies, often times almost exclusively and long term and no such phenomenon was reported AFAIK. Anyone knows?

The fact that others fed their young tigs a good proportion of sea foods and have been fine further weakens the salt hypothesis.

And so does the observation that after 12" salt mysteriously loses its deadliness over tigs.

All the while, the thiaminase hypothesis is well established and appears solid. And thiaminase is found in high content in other than crustaceans, e.g., in smelt IIRC.

So to me it appears that the correlation is with tigs taking pellets poorly in general, that is on average, but taking fleshy foods rather readily which often results in B1 deficiency and the ensuing problems, withering, and deaths.

******************************************************************

http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Thiaminase

Animal flesh containing Thiaminase

(This is not an exhaustive list. But see link below.)
Goldfish
Fathead minnows (Rosy Reds)
Carp family – Cyprinus carpio, etc.
Bullhead catfish – Ameiurus m. melas
Buffalofish – Ictiobus cyprinellus
White Bass – Morone chrysops
Tuna fish
Mullet
Herring
Mackerel
Whitefish
Shellfish -Mussels
Bacteria producing Thiaminase have been found in Guppies - Poecilia reticulata.
However small amounts of these foods are safe if only fed occasionally, say once a week, and as part of a varied diet.


Animal flesh NOT containing Thiaminase

(This is not an exhaustive list. But see link below.)
Cod – Gadus morhua
Haddock - Gadus aeglefinus
Eel – Anguilla rostrata
Eel - Anguilla anguilla
Pike – Esox lucius
Salmon – Salmo salar
Brown Trout – Salmo trutta fario
Lake Trout – Salvelinus namaycush
Rainbow Trout – Oncorhynchus mykiss
Plaice - Pleuronectes platessa
Sprat - Sprattus sprattus
Tilapia
Salmonidae (trout, salmon, etc.)
Perch - Perca fluviatilis
Bass - Morone labrax
Hake - Merluccius merluccius
Halibut - Hippoglossus hippoglossus
Sole - Solea solea
Plaice - Pleuronectes platessa
Sprat - Sprattus sprattus
Skate - Raja spp.


Vitamin B Deficiency Symptoms

Constipation
Appetite loss
Weight loss
Heart enlargement
Lethargy
See Beriberi
 
thebiggerthebetter said:
Thank you, T1. Spinning may be related to things other than bowel movement or an attempt to regurgitate. Brain / central nervous system compromise could do it.

Yeah, post-mortum analysis could have shed good light.

Going back to the explanations. If we suppose your hunch is correct, is it only observed with tigs? Because if it is only the tigs + salt in sea foods, it looks weak because I/we feed plenty of sea foods to ALL kinds of young f/w fish, including Pims and specifically brachies, often times almost exclusively and long term and no such phenomenon was reported AFAIK. Anyone knows?

The fact that others fed their young tigs a good proportion of sea foods and have been fine further weakens the salt hypothesis.

And so does the observation that after 12" salt mysteriously loses its deadliness over tigs.

All the while, the thiaminase hypothesis is well established and appears solid. And thiaminase is found in high content in other than crustaceans, e.g., in smelt IIRC.

So to me it appears that the correlation is with tigs taking pellets poorly in general, that is on average, but taking fleshy foods rather readily which often results in B1 deficiency and the ensuing problems, withering, and deaths.

******************************************************************

http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Thiaminase

Animal flesh containing Thiaminase

(This is not an exhaustive list. But see link below.)
Goldfish
Fathead minnows (Rosy Reds)
Carp family – Cyprinus carpio, etc.
Bullhead catfish – Ameiurus m. melas
Buffalofish – Ictiobus cyprinellus
White Bass – Morone chrysops
Tuna fish
Mullet
Herring
Mackerel
Whitefish
Shellfish -Mussels
Bacteria producing Thiaminase have been found in Guppies - Poecilia reticulata.
However small amounts of these foods are safe if only fed occasionally, say once a week, and as part of a varied diet.


Animal flesh NOT containing Thiaminase

(This is not an exhaustive list. But see link below.)
Cod – Gadus morhua
Haddock - Gadus aeglefinus
Eel – Anguilla rostrata
Eel - Anguilla anguilla
Pike – Esox lucius
Salmon – Salmo salar
Brown Trout – Salmo trutta fario
Lake Trout – Salvelinus namaycush
Rainbow Trout – Oncorhynchus mykiss
Plaice - Pleuronectes platessa
Sprat - Sprattus sprattus
Tilapia
Salmonidae (trout, salmon, etc.)
Perch - Perca fluviatilis
Bass - Morone labrax
Hake - Merluccius merluccius
Halibut - Hippoglossus hippoglossus
Sole - Solea solea
Plaice - Pleuronectes platessa
Sprat - Sprattus sprattus
Skate - Raja spp.


Vitamin B Deficiency Symptoms

Constipation
Appetite loss
Weight loss
Heart enlargement
Lethargy
See Beriberi
Click to expand...

Salt may affect some tigs and not others maybe even with something the way the fish was washed cleaned or even frozen

I have treated a TIG in the past with salt in the tank only to see its whiskers and tail streamers melt away

It may well be just tigs who can't digest meaty salt food when small
Dogs can eat meat but they don't do well on pork as they can't digest the fat very well that's why you don't see any dog biscuit / kibble with pork in it but you see chicken Turkey beef rabbit fish just to name a few but not pork why do you think that is as pork would be one of the cheapest thing to put in dog food it's because studies have shown dogs can digest it

And yes you are right the spinning could be a brain problem which could be caused by salt just like when humans drink sea water it drives us mad

Many things could be the cause when I first started keeping tig I only used to visit a Asian forum called arofanatics and tigs was dropping like flys and everyone blamed it on sudden death and I worked out the reason they could be having so many deaths was because the main food fed in Singapore was market prawns
Now things have moved on in over 10 years and most people around the world are feed pellets the sudden death seams to have reduced and many more tigs are making it to adult hood


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Thanks for the answer. A very unusual (IMHO) sighting on the fin extensions slowly disappearing with salt application.

It sounds like what you propose should be kept in mind for sure while raising tigs. I, for one, will keep close attention to it next time I get to raise a tig.

Just to note though that the dog analogy is a good one (and new to me, so thanks again) but a more direct one could be that "this one canine species cannot digest pork well while all others can".

As for the market prawns being the majority of a diet, it goes without saying that this can support both your blaming salt as well as mine blaming thiaminase.
 
Well now the tig I have has grown from 5 " or so to 9" in 2 months and is still going nuts at feeding time. He eats squid and mysis with np. I dont believe that theres a lot of salt in squid, especially the ones u buy in the store that are already cut into rings. I would never feed him non cut, raw squid from a bait shop. I believe something definitely can come out bad that way. I thoroughly believe that when I added that damn bichir, it made a serious problem for my first one and not from the squid. I have other fish eating squid, like motoro rays and have never had any issues so I dont really think salt is a major concern. And all fish need variety of foods, not just pellets. I hope these past discussions help future tig owners out. IMO, the most amazing and versatile catfish one can own, period.

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I don't think it's a good idea to feed a freshwater fish a saltwater food. That doesn't make much sense. It's not their natural diet so it's not going to be good for them. The best food for a fish is to feed it what it would naturally eat in it's environment.

I have also had bad experience with shrimp. Got a bad batch that killed a couple prize fish. Don't feed that crap anymore. Like T1 mentioned, it's not worth it and it's also one of the most expensive foods out there so loose loose for me.


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When theyre small they can be very picky with foods, offer it live black worms or guppies. I once had one that wouldn't eat anything but neons tetras. Try mixing pellets into a clump of black worms so they become familiar with the smell and taste. If that doesn't work you can try a product called seachem entice. The liquid can be added to pellets easily and smells good enough for me to taste it!
 
I know it sounds weird but cut squid rings that are bought in grocery stores have no salt in them. They've been processed so much that its out of it. I tried it just to see for myself and I tasted no salt in it. Shrimp are different and probably carry a slight amount. But the question here is whats the food that has good nutrition and is readily available. I feed mine cut squid rings and mysis and he has grown nicely and is healthy. Id rather that then feeder goldfish! Just make sure whatever u feed him its clean, sterile and will keep it healthy

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People feed goldfish to their fish and they sure as hell aren't in any river system in SA I know of so ???

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While browsing, I've just noted what's written in the PCF Cat-eLog for tig:

"Feeding: A predator that eats other fishes. Newly caught specimens may need some time before they learn to eat dead food, and thus may require feeding live \"feeder fish\", but they can be trained to eat pieces of fish. Pieces of marine fish is considered better than freshwater fish as it\'s much less likely to contain transferable parasites."

It looks like whosever wrote that entry didn't think marine fish to be a nutritional problem. I am not saying anything, just taking it at the face value.

Just for reference, here is a recent case where mussels might have compromised an adult tig reported by T1: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/bloated-tig.648494/
 
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