Hikari pellets

[RD.]

I believe that fish are some of the most resilient creatures on the planet.


Even Wardley's so called Algae Discs will keep them alive. lol


Wheat Flour, Wheat Middlings, Fish Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Gluten Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Soy Protein Isolate, Ground Dried Spirulina, Fish Oil, Soybean Oil, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Calcium Propionate (a preservative), Rice Hulls, Choline Chloride, Betaine, Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Vitamin E Supplement, Calcium Carbonate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K activity), Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Mineral Oil, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Vitamin A Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate.

 

[RD.]

Now, here's my question: we are always hearing about the importance of getting enough dietary fiber in our own diets. Fibre...roughage...indigestible material...filler? Gotta keep those bowels churning. How can this not be completely at odds with your fish food philosophy?

That Wardley formula is listed on the label as 3% max crude fiber. The formula/brand that I feed, contains a max of 8% crude fiber. Hmmmmm.
Cheap fillers are just that, cheap.






All my fish, including those that lean towards the carnivorous side of the equation, get these as a supplement.

 

[RD.]

And just to wrap this up with Hikari's formula.....

Algae Wafers™ - Hikari Sales USA (hikariusa.com)

"High levels of vegetable matter that algae eaters prefer and love"


Fish meal, wheat flour, wheat germ meal, cassava starch, dried bakery product, dried seaweed meal, alfalfa nutrient concentrate dehydrated, dehydrated alfalfa meal, brewers dried yeast, soybean meal, fish oil, krill meal, spirulina, garlic, DL-methionine, chlorella, astaxanthin, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), inositol, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, disodium phosphate, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate.* 05-49R
* Because of our commitment to providing the highest quality nutrition available, some differences in ingredients may occur due to regular formula updates.

Crude Protein	Crude Fat	Crude Fiber	Moisture	Ash
min. 33.0%	min. 4.0%	max. 3.0%	max. 10.0%	max. 17.0%

Again, cheap fillers to bulk up a formula do not necessarily equate to fiber/roughage. Dried bakery product? lol

 

[RD.]

I have no hate for Hikari, but I suspect the average hobbyist doesn't see things quite like I do.

When one adds certain ingredients in the previously posted formula above, together, such as wheat flour & wheat germ meal, how much wheat in total is actually in this formula? Maybe more than fish meal? How about the alfalfa nutrient concentrate dehydrated & the dehydrated alfalfa meal? Probably bumps the seaweed meal down the list a couple of notches. Hmmmmm.

Interestingly enough, I then see DL-methionine added. That's the real red flag. An amino acid that is typically added, when a formula is jacked up with, you guessed it, less costly raw ingredients, such as terrestrial based plant matter. With methionine, fish can eat less and grow better - Evonik Industries
" Study confirmed that by adding methionine in feed formulation, we can not only promote the growth of aquatic animals, but also effectively save on feed costs. "

Effects of replacing fish meal with soy protein concentrate and of DL-methionine supplementation in high-energy, extruded diets on the growth and nutrient utilization of rainbow trout, Oncorhynchus mykiss - PubMed (nih.gov)

Exploring the nutritional potential of L-methionine in fish nutrition - Engormix

" Likewise, methionine is often considered the first limiting AA in many protein sources that are normally used in aquafeed, mainly in vegetal protein source (Nguyen et al., 2009b; Nunes et al., 2014; Zhou et al., 2006). "


This isn't about saving the planet, it's about saving feed costs. You can only utilize so much soybean, or peas, or whatever, without providing some quality marine based protein (amino acids) and lipids. Otherwise, one has to add something in to balance that void in raw ingredients, such as DL-methionine.

My life experience is that one generally gets what they pay for. If you are happy with the results that you see in your tanks, then carry on - but at least do so with your eyes wide open.

Personally, I don't like paying for fillers, and unfortunately with the current cost of marine proteins, high quality feed costs are only going to go up, or companies are going to look for ways to lower production costs. Just like everything else in the world.

 

[jjohnwm]

And just to wrap this up with Hikari's formula.....

Algae Wafers™ - Hikari Sales USA (hikariusa.com)

"High levels of vegetable matter that algae eaters prefer and love"


Fish meal, wheat flour, wheat germ meal, cassava starch, dried bakery product, dried seaweed meal, alfalfa nutrient concentrate dehydrated, dehydrated alfalfa meal, brewers dried yeast, soybean meal, fish oil, krill meal, spirulina, garlic, DL-methionine, chlorella, astaxanthin, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), inositol, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, disodium phosphate, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate.* 05-49R
* Because of our commitment to providing the highest quality nutrition available, some differences in ingredients may occur due to regular formula updates.

Crude Protein	Crude Fat	Crude Fiber	Moisture	Ash
min. 33.0%	min. 4.0%	max. 3.0%	max. 10.0%	max. 17.0%

Again, cheap fillers to bulk up a formula do not necessarily equate to fiber/roughage. Dried bakery product? lol

Okay, that clears it up some. Fillers are not roughage, as I had erroneously assumed. "Dried bakery product" sounds suspiciously like stale bread crumbs...or something even worse, maybe floor sweepings...

I certainly wasn't suggesting that fillers were being used for any reason other than economy; I guess it was just a futile hope that cheap fillers might have some benefit for some veggie-loving fish...but, as in everything, there ain't no free lunch.

It does seem that it is much more difficult to find a quality herbivore-oriented fish food that actually contains vegetation of aquatic origin, than a carnivore-oriented one containing protein from aquatic sources. Even many of the mid-priced ones still seem to have a lot of fish meal, krill, etc.

Me? I'm gonna find me some of them Tapioca wafers and spike'em with DL-methionine.

Joking aside, I have a breeding colony of Xenotoca livebearers that I have tried to feed a lower-protein diet than is provided by most commercial foods. I have read much about excessive protein with respect to these fish; Xenotoca fry are already very large when born, easily 1/4-inch or more, and the common wisdom was that too much protein caused them to grow large enough to cause problems during delivery. I was skeptical, but during my first years of keeping them I seemed to lose a number of females who died with all the visible external symptoms of a prolapsed anus. Those upon which I performed a hillbilly necropsy were chock full of huge fry. Hmmm...

Switching the pitch and feeding these fish the cheapest foods I could find, usually Wardley's from the grocery store (!), seemed to minimize these odd deaths, but even a troglodyte like me could see from the label that it was crap. Harvesting hair algae from other tanks...it's impossible to grow it in sufficient quantity with the fish themselves...and incorporating it and duckweed into homemade gel foods seems to be the solution. The fish look and act better, are absolutely more colourful, breed well and generally seem healthier than ever before.

But your observation on the resilience of fish really resonates with my experience with these Goodeids. Even when they were eating foods that were purposely chosen for their low protein content...which seemed to go hand-in-hand with cheap and poor quality...they did pretty well, and overall at least as well as on "good" foods but with fewer too-pregnant-to-move deaths. Tough fish indeed!

I'm always suggesting that people select fish that are suited to the type of water that they can easily provide; most pay no attention to that idea, just buying whatever species is the right colour to match their furniture or whatever, and then often end up wondering why they languish. This thread makes me wonder if we should also be considering what types of foods we are willing to buy and provide for our fish when we select them; I am kinda sorta leaning in the direction of saying that might be the case with some fish that have evolved with specialized nutritional needs. I feel bad about an entire generation of Xenotoca that grew up eating Wardley's in my tanks. Just because they can survive and even grow and breed on that stuff doesn't mean I like the idea.

Don't buy a fish evolved to a specific herbivorous diet and expect to feed it corn meal; don't buy an ambush predator and expect it to thrive on starving diseased goldfish.

 

[Something Fishy Here]

I find it interestingwhen i hear people say my fish hate nls. Granted i only have 1 tank and always have but I've kept fish for about 20 years now and never had fish refuse to eat it. Its the staple I've used for probably 15 years so perhaps my current fish just don't know what else is out there, or maybe i keep them hungrier than others. Or maybe i keep less picky fish. But I've tried a few varieties and my fish always go for it. I do occasional shrimp pellets or algae wafers which they go nuts for but have a lot more terrestrial filler, so those are maybe once a week, not their daily feed.

 

[esoxlucius]

I'm always suggesting that people select fish that are suited to the type of water that they can easily provide

This thread makes me wonder if we should also be considering what types of foods we are willing to buy and provide for our fish when we select them;

Along with your above two, there's a third! Call them the three essential laws of successful fish keeping. The third is probably the most contentious too, which comes up as regular as clockwork on here. That is the age old, "what size tank for x, y or z fish."

So....look at the size of tank you can provide to see which fish can fit in it, check your water parameters to see which fish are ok with said parameters, and then decide what diet you can afford, and see which fish are ok with said diet.

That would mean people would have to do even more research, on top of all the research that they are already too lazy to do. So they'd post on here instead, along the lines of.....

"Please help....I have a ?g tank.....my parameters are ?.....and I can feed ?.....What fish can I have?"

Wouldn't those threads be fun, lol.

 

[jjohnwm]

...or maybe i keep them hungrier than others.

Bingo! Congrats! Feed...don't overfeed. Almost everybody seems to overfeed their fish, or any other pets for that matter.

Your fish should react the same way your dog should react to feeding time...i.e. with almost unbridled enthusiasm. Healthy animals that pick at their food or ignore it are almost always overfed. People are always looking for some ridiculously overcomplicated reason for these "hunger strikes"...the temperature dropped by 1C degree, or the pH is wrong, or the fish are distracted by the TV, or the programmable light fixture is producing the wrong colour of light, or...or...or...you get the picture.

The simplest explanation is almost always the correct one. If your fish are otherwise healthy but are not eating, it's likely because you're feeding them too much. Keep that up for too long, and your fish will eventually cease to be healthy.

 

[RD.]

Harvesting hair algae from other tanks...it's impossible to grow it in sufficient quantity with the fish themselves...and incorporating it and duckweed into homemade gel foods seems to be the solution. The fish look and act better, are absolutely more colourful, breed well and generally seem healthier than ever before.

That's awesome, good call in changing things up. In that case gel foods would also help reduce overall nutrient levels, as gel food typically consists of at least 70% water, a non nutrient. Mother natures filler of sorts, but in this case got the job done.

As you and others have experienced, myself included, lower cost foods can still be more than adequate in providing overall healthy growth etc, in many species.

Don't buy a fish evolved to a specific herbivorous diet and expect to feed it corn meal; don't buy an ambush predator and expect it to thrive on starving diseased goldfish.

I think that this is excellent advice, especially if one considers keeping marine species. Many of the more delicate marine fish will simply not survive on mediocre food, loaded with soybean/wheat/corn etc. I believe that it had not been for the saltwater side of this hobby, we would have never seen some of the more premium commercial pellet/wafer foods that are available today. Years ago one wouldn't even consider attempting to keep a fish such as a Moorish Idol alive, and thriving in captivity for more than a few months, at best. Today, many marine hobbyists keep Idols along with many other delicate marine species alive in captivity successfully, for years. The only change - diet.

Unfortunately, with some of the raw ingredients used in commercial feed such as fish meal pretty much quadrupling in price over the past decade, I expect to see more wheat/soybean/pea/corn, than quality marine proteins/fats had the top of the ingredient list in the future. In fact, I noticed a shift already starting a number of years back. That, or expect to pay more $$$ for the more premium foods.

 

[jjohnwm]

Along with your above two, there's a third! Call them the three essential laws of successful fish keeping. The third is probably the most contentious too, which comes up as regular as clockwork on here. That is the age old, "what size tank for x, y or z fish."

So....look at the size of tank you can provide to see which fish can fit in it, check your water parameters to see which fish are ok with said parameters, and then decide what diet you can afford, and see which fish are ok with said diet.

That would mean people would have to do even more research, on top of all the research that they are already too lazy to do. So they'd post on here instead, along the lines of.....

"Please help....I have a ?g tank.....my parameters are ?.....and I can feed ?.....What fish can I have?"

Wouldn't those threads be fun, lol.

So true. But the problem with that...aside from the fact that most "research" seems to consist of coming on here and asking for someone else to do it (the way I do with RD. on the topic of nutrition ) is an idea that has cropped up only in the last 20 or so years.

That idea? It's called...and this is one of my most-hated phrases...the "grow-out tank". It's a nice euphemism for "I don't have an aquarium even close to big enough for this fish when it grows up, but that's okay because I plan on getting one soon".