Hikari pellets

[jjohnwm]

That's awesome, good call in changing things up. In that case gel foods would also help reduce overall nutrient levels, as gel food typically consists of at least 70% water, a non nutrient. Mother natures filler of sorts, but in this case got the job done.

As you and others have experienced, myself included, lower cost foods can still be more than adequate in providing overall healthy growth etc, in many species.



I think that this is excellent advice, especially if one considers keeping marine species. Many of the more delicate marine fish will simply not survive on mediocre food, loaded with soybean/wheat/corn etc. I believe that it had not been for the saltwater side of this hobby, we would have never seen some of the more premium commercial pellet/wafer foods that are available today. Years ago one wouldn't even consider attempting to keep a fish such as a Moorish Idol alive, and thriving in captivity for more than a few months, at best. Today, many marine hobbyists keep Idols along with many other delicate marine species alive in captivity successfully, for years. The only change - diet.

That's interesting, and probably a very valid observation; I never thought of it before. I was once pretty heavily into marines, but haven't kept a salt tank in something like 35 years now. When I kept them, I vividly recall certain species being considered "difficult or impossible to keep" and the Moorish Idol was on that list, along with some species of Filefish and my dream fish, the Pinnatus Batfish. Of course, back then, breeding of marines was virtually unheard of...we still used a lot of undergravel filters...and "reef" tanks as we know them today were in their infancy, the stuff of dreams.

As a nutrition-related aside: I had a 120-gallon marine tank filtered with a DIY reverse-flow UG filter, powered by HOB filters. It produced a couple species of Caulerpa algae in huge quantities at prodigious rates, particularly the species that looks like bundles of green grapes, and I pulled out double-handfuls every few days. Some I sold to a LFS; most went into my Osphronemus goramy's maw, which was always open and never satisfied. The marine algae made up a significant portion of that fish's diet for several years; I now shudder to think of the ramifications of that statement, but the fish seemed healthy and lived to a ripe old age, so...once again, resilient fish.

 

[RD.]

Check it out Moorish Idol Extravaganza! | MonsterFishKeepers.com

Kieron Dodds, from Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine wrote an article on the Moorish Idol in 2008, titled; "Still Impossible After All These Years - Keeping Moorish Idol". He clearly admits that the main intent of his article was to discourage anyone from acquiring this species, as he feels this species has almost no chance in being kept alive in captivity beyond a very short duration. At one point in the article he states "Pablo Tepoot is perhaps the single individual who has had the most success with this species" - unfortunately Pablo lost his last group of Moorish Idol to an electrical failure during a hurricane, at that point Pablo had kept them thriving in captivity for 5 years.


The owner of that same tank had successfully kept those Idols along with numerous other marine species, all on the same commercial pellet food for years. None of them were bred in captivity.

I can't find some of my full tank pics, some of those fish are as large as dinner plates. As I recall the tank was 10ft x 4ft x 4ft.

 

[jjohnwm]

I don't know which is more magnificent...the tank shown above, or the one in that link. A whole school of healthy Moorish Idols, and as you begin to recover from the shock of that sight...in comes an Achilles Tang, another "impossible" species.

Interesting to note how the fish were fed; a couple light pinches of pellets. Maybe he did that several times daily, no idea, but in any case he sure didn't have piles and drifts of uneaten food lying on the bottom as one sees in so many pics and videos of many aquariums. Those fish seemed very happy to see that food, so they are definitely not seeing it in such quantities as to make them lose interest.

 

[RD.]

To give you an idea of the size of some of those fish. These pics were taken back in 2005, a good portion were raised from much smaller sizes, all on pellet food.

 

[RD.]

I find it interestingwhen i hear people say my fish hate nls. Granted i only have 1 tank and always have but I've kept fish for about 20 years now and never had fish refuse to eat it. Its the staple I've used for probably 15 years so perhaps my current fish just don't know what else is out there, or maybe i keep them hungrier than others. Or maybe i keep less picky fish. But I've tried a few varieties and my fish always go for it. I do occasional shrimp pellets or algae wafers which they go nuts for but have a lot more terrestrial filler, so those are maybe once a week, not their daily feed.

Like yourself, I have fed NLS for many years, 20+ yrs in fact. I have trained many wild caught fish to eat it, along with cichlids raised in SE Asia on an exclusive diet of blood worms. That was tricky. I even owned & trained a BGK years ago to eat NLS. Having said that, I understand how picky some fish can become, to certain diets, textures, even colors it seems. One thing that appears to work against the more nutrient dense feeds, is their hardness. IME this is the #1 con of NLS, and always has been. With smaller pellets, and fish with strong jaws used to cracking/crushing harder foods, not an issue. But not all fish react to the same stimuli when feeding.

An interesting read on this subject by a Russian author in Fish Biology in 2019.

The taste system in fishes and the effects of environmental variables

Alexander O. Kasumyan
First published: 22 February 2019

https://doi.org/10.1111/jfb.13940


In which the author discusses feed trials involving >>>>> 4.6 Food hardness and texture

My personal experience, even with fish raised on (more like experimented on) numerous dry pellets/wafers, over many years, manufactured by numerous companies, involving numerous different formulas, is that some fish will greedily consume it all, while some will act more like a spoiled kid, refusing to eat what I know is best for them.

IME the more intelligent the fish, in my case that would be my adult male Amphilophus, the more selective they can become. That fish has refused to eat the same brand, same formula, due to the size of the pellet, in this case a larger sized pellet. Same results with both sinking pellets, and floating. Same exact formula. In fact, with one particular brand (not NLS) when I ordered a new supply online, of the exact same food that he had eaten on a regular basis, he refused to eat it. Old bag, same identical size/formula, gobbled them up like always - new bag, same identical size/formula, no go. He never did convert. In fact if I added that food (the new stuff) in with some of his other favorites, he would refuse to eat anything. This went on for days. The ingredients had not changed (at least on the label) and to my nose it smelled the same, or close enough? But to this fish, something was off, and he wasn't having any part of it. I finally gave up, and fed it to my loaches & other fish, that eat anything. lol

Same fish did the exact same thing when offered a different brand, same formula (floating) that he has eaten on a regular basis, the only difference, the new bag was larger in size. IMO the larger size was more appropriate to his mouth size. This is a 13-1

 

[RD.]

… 13-14” adult cichlid, that can draw blood from my hand/arm! He wouldn't have it, not eating them. Again, this experiment went on until I got tired of removing the uneaten food. Just recently, a few weeks ago, he changed his mind, now that this batch of floating food has reached its expiration date. lol





If someone told me this story I just shared 20 yrs ago, I would have thought they were daft, or too inexperienced to train a fish.



Now I know better - some fish most definitely find certain pellets/wafers more palatable than others, and convincing them otherwise is not always a simple task. The paper linked to above explains why that might be, at least with those species that to date have been studied. IME, for some fish, the harder/denser the feed, the less palatable the food becomes to many fish. If one consider their diet in the wild, this makes sense. The softer the diet in nature, the more reluctant they will be to take a very hard food in captivity. This is where pre-soaking hard food comes into play when attempting to convert a fish. But even that, will never be 100% effective, for all species of finfish. Some species are simply not hard wired for certain diets. The downside for manufacturers is if one adds to much moisture to the mix, the food won't keep nearly as long, and mold can become a problem. Due to their design, floating foods are less dense, and the more carbs (fillers) the faster they soften in the water I suppose. For a fish, must be like dipping a chocolate chip cookie into a glass of milk. Nutritionally speaking, probably not near as good for the person/ fish, as it tastes.

 

[RD.]

Sorry about split post, technical server issues on my end it seems.

 

[jjohnwm]

Good point regarding the relative hardness of various pellets. I think that's a very real factor to consider, especially with piscivores whose natural food is generally not encased in hard shells. There also seems to be a big difference between brands with respect to how long it takes them soften up once placed in water, as well as how well they maintain their appeal when they do soften up.

This is yet another big benefit of DIY gel foods which I don't see mentioned very often; the "mouth-feel", for lack of a better term. Not only can you get just about anything under the sun into your fish by incorporating it into a gelled mixture, but the feel of the food...to the human finger and presumably to the fish's mouth as well...is much more reminiscent of a natural prey item or natural piece of plant matter than any hard, crunchy pellet ever will be. With some non-cichlid predators in particular...fish with big but not necessarily hard pliers-like jaws...this seems to make a difference. The food is seized and simply swallowed, rather than being chewed and chewed and chewed using jaws that aren't adapted for chewing.

 

[RD.]

If the pellets are small enough, many fish will simply swallow them whole, but often times I have seen inexperienced fish keepers feeding pellets that are far too large for the fish. The main con of gel foods, is the large inclusion of water (75%), a non nutrient . Once a fish reaches satiation they stop eating, so one has to feed a LOT more in frequency to get the same daily nutrient levels compared to a dry food. Gel food definitely has more pros than cons for some species, but the fish I keep would mostly make a mess with it.

 

[jjohnwm]

If the pellets are small enough, many fish will simply swallow them whole, but often times I have seen inexperienced fish keepers feeding pellets that are far too large for the fish. The main con of gel foods, is the large inclusion of water (75%), a non nutrient . Once a fish reaches satiation they stop eating, so one has to feed a LOT more in frequency to get the same daily nutrient levels compared to a dry food. Gel food definitely has more pros than cons for some species, but the fish I keep would mostly make a mess with it.

Yeah, I am referring mostly to large and large-mouthed fish that do indeed swallow some pretty big chunks whole; catfish in particular, arowanas, wolffish, that sort of thing. Those fish seem to be able to easily swallow a strip of gel food that is several times the size of the largest hard pellet which they can gulp down in the same fashion. I never use gels for small fish, or fish that can't or won't try to swallow their food whole; I shudder to think of a tank that has had a chunk of gelatin being nibbled and worried by plecos, small cichlids, etc.

Yes, for sure, gels contain a huge percentage of water...just like any food the fish are evolved to eat in nature. In fact, I think this could be considered a positive thing; it allows many aquarists to indulge in their favourite pasttime, i.e. feeding their fish too much and too often...while greatly reducing the chances of overweight, obese fish.