HOLE IN THE HEAD + THIAMINASE - What you need to know!!!!!!

Miguel

Ole Dawg
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Dec 28, 2006
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Very much south..
So, for fish that won't eat pellets ( my aro's and LMB's ) and since goldfish is not an option ( I am not in Asia, so I have scarce access to other live feeders ), what is in you guys opinion, a correct feeding?

Is frozen shrimp ( bought fresh ) a wrong food, as mussels? as slices of fish ( mostly trout and nile perch ,but sometimes SW fish fillets? as, on occasion, raw cubes of chicken? as wonderworms?

if all those are wrong foods ( I am speaking in nutritional terms, not in terms of bio load charge ) what is the way to go ( absent pellets )?

Secondly, I have never seen HIH or LLE in other fish than cichlids ( I am not saying it is not possible, should be possible ) but in 30 years of fishkeeping I have never come across it. Therefore, some other factor must be involved, beyond nutritional defficiency.

Thirdly, Miles, in what cocerns Aquarioum Salt you went around in a circle, and there is no conclusion I am able to reach from your info. Why is it only a short mineral boost? Why is the adittion of salt, to tanks with fish that can take it ( not all react well, admittedly ) negative?

Keep it up, please. Lets dig deeper.
 

TwistedPenguin

Fire Eel
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My most favorite topic of all time as I have 5 Oscars, Miles, thank you.
I've brought up the Thiaminase point in various forums when people ask about feeding shrimp as a staple before also. People that keep nitrates low are typically the same ones feeding a quality varied diet-with healthy fish. To Miguel-mussels are good but not warm blooded animal meats. I most certainly don't think there's only one cause of Hole In The Head. It's always been my belief that if there WERE just 1 cause it would be long-term nitrates over 20-25 ppm. We'd be hard pressed to find a fish with HITH who's been kept continuously in nitrates under 10 ppm.
 

Tongue33

Feeder Fish
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TwistedPenguin;2127585; said:
My most favorite topic of all time as I have 5 Oscars, Miles, thank you.
I've brought up the Thiaminase point in various forums when people ask about feeding shrimp as a staple before also. People that keep nitrates low are typically the same ones feeding a quality varied diet-with healthy fish. To Miguel-mussels .
Mussels and clams contain almost as much Thiaminase as Carp ;) Have been deemed to have the highest of the studied fish.. But the others were not far behind.. The other top ones were shellfish .Namely Clams.
 

Tongue33

Feeder Fish
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TwistedPenguin;2127596; said:
Freshwater mussels? I'm going to go research that and if that's the case I'm going to thank you for that comment :)


Click on the link that Miles gave. Then click on the blue part above the list of fish on that page and it opens up to a much larger list. You will note half way down that page Mussels are on it.. NOW.. To the side of each species it there are letters.. The key to those letters are on the next page. Note the letter next to mussels.

Here is the page link that is linked from the link on Miles' link ;)

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=030903325X&page=64#pagetop
 

Tongue33

Feeder Fish
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Also note the part of the mussel they tested ..
 

TwistedPenguin

Fire Eel
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Jan 21, 2008
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Tongue33;2127642; said:
Click on the link that Miles gave. Then click on the blue part above the list of fish on that page and it opens up to a much larger list. You will note half way down that page Mussels are on it.. NOW.. To the side of each species it there are letters.. The key to those letters are on the next page. Note the letter next to mussels.
Here is the page link that is linked from the link on Miles' link ;)
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=030903325X&page=64#pagetop
I see where the portion tested was the muscle meat and I see the habitat they got the test portion from. But I couldn't find the key to the letters or the letter that mussels were rated. I'm still reading the article at http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/196/1/289 also.
I can't thank you enough for going to the trouble of correcting me. I'm still reading but this is one of those 'lightbulb' moments.
 

Tongue33

Feeder Fish
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I think I was leading you into the area that is overlooked as the link is specifically for FISH that do or do not contain ;) And many do not consider that shellfish are fish as they call them clams, mussels, shrimp..
 

Miles

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Jul 2, 2005
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Miguel;2127559; said:
So, for fish that won't eat pellets ( my aro's and LMB's ) and since goldfish is not an option ( I am not in Asia, so I have scarce access to other live feeders ), what is in you guys opinion, a correct feeding?
Is frozen shrimp ( bought fresh ) a wrong food, as mussels? as slices of fish ( mostly trout and nile perch ,but sometimes SW fish fillets? as, on occasion, raw cubes of chicken? as wonderworms?
Sounds like its mainly shellfish that tend to carry thiamine destroying enzymes. Fish fillets such as trout, bass, and cod are good, and not sure about SW fillets..

The main idea is not to over-feed or primarily feed products that are carp-like (goldfish) or shellfish (shrimp).. it can have a negative effect long-term.

if all those are wrong foods ( I am speaking in nutritional terms, not in terms of bio load charge ) what is the way to go ( absent pellets )?
Worms have a great amount of nutritional variety.. supplementing them with the other foods you mentioned should be a good varied diet. Just keep in mind not to overfeed with these many fatty and high protein food, it can lead to other long-term health issues like fatty liver disease.

Secondly, I have never seen HIH or LLE in other fish than cichlids ( I am not saying it is not possible, should be possible ) but in 30 years of fishkeeping I have never come across it. Therefore, some other factor must be involved, beyond nutritional defficiency.
Other types of fish display it in different ways.. I recently had a friend inherit some very large Syndontis eupterus and a large parrot fish, all about 8". They all suffered horribly from lateral line erosion, and pitting craters near the head, but not nearly as bad as seen on Oscars. Tank maintenance consisted of breaking down the 29g tank once a year to hose off the undergravel filter.. no water changes. :ROFL:

You also see this quite often in many types of saltwater fish due to nutritional deficiencies due to it being nearly impossible to re-create some dietary requirements of saltwater fihs.

Thirdly, Miles, in what cocerns Aquarioum Salt you went around in a circle, and there is no conclusion I am able to reach from your info. Why is it only a short mineral boost? Why is the adittion of salt, to tanks with fish that can take it ( not all react well, admittedly ) negative?
Not so much a short mineral boost, but a short boost in electrolytes. The sudden influx of dissolved solids in the water will relieve an osmosis system for a short period, but its only a temporary supplement as fish need a variety of solids (nutrients) to osmoregulate properly. Salt has other side effects that offer short term 'tonic' like effects (slime coat stimulation, increase ion exchange resulting in better gill/oxgyen function, etc).. but a high concentration of salt can put alot of 'pressure' on a fish that doesn't usually deal with alot of solids in the water. It's especially less beneficial if the existing aquarium water is nutrient deprived, as it disallows the fish to absorb a variety of nutrients.

Fish that naturally come from water that are high in solids (rift lake, brackish) will benefit from the use of salt, much more so than fish from soft water (amazon).. However, if you think about the fact that 'aquarium salt' does not effect pH - it's because its much less complex and diverse with nutrients and minerals. Even rift lake salts raise the pH, and are specific to each lake, due to the complexity of the minerals those products contain.

IMO, 'Aquarium Salt' is completely worthless except for using it as a treatment for parasites (Ich) and other health issues. I look at similar to antibiotics - If you take them all the time they will become less effective. Save the salt for when you need it.. if you are worried about adding solids to the water because the fish 'thrive' in those environments, use habitat specific buffers (rift lake, brackish) and water changes to replenish nutrients.

Hope that made better sense? :naughty:
 
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brianp

Candiru
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Oct 5, 2007
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Miles;2127358; said:
Okay, let's talk about Hole in the Head.

What causes it?
- You will hear a million different theories - ready to hear mine? years of collective research and gathering opinions with an open mind has led me to these conclusions..


Simply put, 'Hole in the Head' and 'Lateral Line Erosion' are caused from a nutrient deficiency.

I don't see the word THIAMIASE come up very much - when it is a very important enzyme that anyone with PREDATORY FISH should be aware of..


1) Thiaminase
Thiaminase destroys Thiamine (Vitamin B1). Goldfish & Rosie Reds (and most cyprinidae) contain a very high level of thiaminase. Thiamine deficiency can lead to a myriad of problems including neurodegeneration, wasting and death. Tissue Distribution in many living animals is dependent on Thiamine levels. Once Thiaminase is ingested, it has very long lasting effects and does not purge itself from the body. Lack of Thiamine (Vitamin B1) is the primary reason why fish would not be able to properly produce fleshy tissue.

List of fish containing thiaminase:
http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Articles/Thiaminase.htm


2) Hexamita
The internal form of Hexamita are flagellated protozoans found in the gastrointestinal tract of a wide variety of fishes. It is believed that malabsorption of minerals and vitamins from the intestine due to heavy concentrations the Hexamita parasite makes the fish become nutrient deficient. Important Vitamins such as Vitamin B1, Vitamin K, and Vitamin C will all be absorbed by internal parasites before the fish can properly use and distribute them. This leads to severe malnutrition.


3) Water Quality
Lack of water changes and heavy amounts of 'bioload' make the nutrient level of the water very low. Nitrifying bacteria consumes vitamins and nutrients that are within the water. Larger, Robust fish that produce large amounts of waste are going to have a larger bioload, thus more nitrifying bacteria to consume nutrients. Poorly maintained filtration systems with large amounts of detritus will also create excessive amounts of nitrifying bacteria. Lack of frequent water changes allows the nutrient levels to become quickly depleted in these scenarios.

Note: Just because your Nitrates are low and your water looks clean, does not mean your fish do not benefit from replenishing nutrients through small frequent water changes.


4) Osmosis
Lack of water changes also compromises the osmoregulation system of the fish. When a fish can not adequately perform osmosis by taking in solids around them, not only are they under constant stress from this, but they are not taking in the nutrients they need. Lack of nutrients from osmosis prohibits the body's ability to produce fleshy tissue. Many hobbyist use vitamin/mineral pyramid blocks to supplement their fish. Frequent water changes also replenish the nutrient needed to aid in osmosis.

Note: Frequent water changes cause fish to grow faster and healthier, as they need a wide array of Micro and Macro nutrient in order to supplement the osmosis system. Only in domestic aquaria do fish encounter 'osmoregulatory compromise' - in which these nutrient levels become unbalanced - thus the vital need for water changes.

Note2: "Aquarium Salt" is just a quick boost in dissolved solids in the water, which will temporarily aid in the osmosis system of most fish. However, some fish are put under osmotic pressure from these solids, making it detrimental. It also stimulates slime coat and boosts electrolytes. Although a well-known 'cure-all tonic', salt can be good and bad for different reasons, however it does not supplement the need for the proper nutrients needed in osmosis.


5) Nutrition
Poor quality foods will make your fish nutrient deprived. Using cheap brands such as Wardley that is full of fillers and byproducts, does not provide the vitamin and nutrient content that large predatory fish need to re-create their diet in the wild. Low quality foods will also create more physical waste due to fillers, thus creating more nitrifying bacteria.(see above) Most vitamins and nutrients are water soluble, but people mistakingly feed frozen and flake foods. These foods are low in nutrient content. It is better to feed pelletized food, that can be ingested like a pill, in order for the fish to absorb the maximum amount of possible vitamin content. High quality super premium foods, although expensive, are well worth their nutrient content - especially to large carnivorous predators.


So, in summary - In order to prevent hold in the head..

1) No Feeder Fish
2) No Internal Parasites
3) Perform Frequent Water Changes
4) Perform More Frequent Water Changes
5) Feed High Quality Pelletized Foods


PS. Secondary Bacterial Infections from Hole in the Head are not the cause of hole in the head nor have anything to do with the nutrition issue or deterioration of fleshy tissue.


I hope someone takes something good from this post :D I have been pondering these thoughts for a long time and thought I would share - Hopefully someone else has some good stuff to share.. but PLEASE do your research before you start quoting an outdated website from the early 90s ;) Maybe someone else has some super concrete scientific links or facts about HoleInTheHead that I am unaware of?

-Miles
Thanks for the info. However, I would disagree (or at least question) a couple of your conclusions. First, with regard to "Thiaminase", this is an enzyme and is therefore, a protein. My guess is that it is inactivated and digested within the dietary tract of the fish that ate the feeder, just as any other protein present in the feeder would be. If you have contrary info. about the survival of thiaminase I would be interested in reading it. My Dats have been given a steady diet of goldfish for four years and have never been sick a day during that period.

Second, I'm not sure about your take on "osmosis". Presumably, you are aware that a freshwater fish is hypertonic with respect to the water surrounding it. This means that water, not "solids" is continually attempting to diffuse into the fish. The slime coat is a reasonably good barrier, but not perfect. This is why fw fish are constantly urinating....to get rid of the excess water.

Finally, in spite of a myriad of claims made about the benefits of salt, I can find absolutely no "authoratative" scientific information or data to confirm any of them. Most of the salt-related articles are pseudo-scientific speculation on the part of aquariasts. Empirically, I have never understood why a fish that has evolved in an aquatic environment essentially devoid of NaCl would be expected to benefit from the addition of NaCl in an aquarium. It is an absolute mystery to me why people add salt to their tanks when the fish become ill.

Certainly, I would agree that water changes are important, however.
 
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