This has turned out rather interesting and I have been given the chance to learn more because of it, fascinating. Thank you for bringing this to attention George.
How are these still alive?
- Thread starter Supergeorge123
- Start date
use to get O2 tabs when i got my fingerling trout to stock my pond. picked up in 55 gallon garbage can. 35 or 40 per can. lasted about the 40 minutes to get home and still had to hurry as they started going belly up. fine once poured in the pond but was always close. This was 20 years ago.
It said in the article that they could live up to 15 days in there without maintenance. I was also reading another article from someone who said they could last 72 days. That seems questionable to me but if this system works so well why dont ornamental fish companies use them to ship their fish?
Hmm, lets dissect this shall we?
There are 12 rosy red minnows in that cup. (The article says they are fat head minnows but as far as I can tell they are clearly not)
The temperature of the water is cooled down to 40 degrees.
Based off of this, https://www.baitvendingcups.com/ , I am going to assume that the styrofoam cup in question is the 20 ounce version.
I have "confirmed" that by going to this site, https://www.baitvendingcups.com/ , finding this quote
"The polymos, Inc. 20 oz Live bait Vending Cups are premium insulated cups that are superior to any other vending cups on the market and are the only cups that can be used in the older LB 170 Live Bait Vendor machines. There are two types of vending bait cups - The round minnow cup and the round bait cup. Both look alike and are the same dimensions of 4.75" H x 4.25" W"
then calculating the volume. If you use the formula for finding the volume of a cylinder (Pi (3.14) times the radius raised to the second power times height) the numbers given then you get .29 gallons. I converted gallons to ounces and got 37.12 ounces.
Ok, that went wrong and the reason why is because the numbers given are expressing the outside diameter of the cup and not the inside. Lets subtract one inch from the width to account for the thick styrofoam so we now have 4.75 inches for height and 3.25 inches for width.
We use the formula (I recommend just using an online calculator for this to save yourself the headache) and you get .17 gallons. Converted to ounces you get 21.76 ounces. That is close enough.
Now, take a look back at the picture provided by op and look at the gravel. That doesn't look like normal gravel to me. That looks more like zeolite, a substance used to remove ammonia in the fish keeping hobby.
(A few links I found about zeolite in the aquaria, http://forum.livefish.com.au/discussion/771/zeolite-if-your-using-or-tried-it-tell-your-story , https://ymlp.com/zqZeNJ , https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_Clinoptilolite_on_Aquarium_Water_Conditions , If you google "zeolite for shipping fish" then the first result should be a pdf file from https://agrilifecdn.tamu.edu which is quite a good read, a bit advanced but I'd recommend it to other people to read.)
Now, lets get to the temperature decrease and the oxygen tablets.
If you google "The Effect of Water Temperature on Goldfish Respiration Rate" then you should come upon a pdf file from www.southeastern.edu Here is what it says,
"The purpose of this experiment was to identify the effect of cold water temperature on the
respiration rate of a Carassius auratus—goldfish. Respiration (breathing) is the way organisms
exchange gases with their environment. Aerobic respiration, also known as aerobic metabolism
in the Kingdom Animalia, occurs when oxygen is taken into the body and sent to all its cells; it is
then used to break down food for energy (White and Campo 2004). All organisms experience
respiration differently; lungs, gills, tracheae, and integument are all different structures equipped
for making respiration possible. Animals that depend on their environment for body temperature
are called ectotherms. Endotherms are warm blooded organisms that regulate their body
temperatures internally, despite their environment. All aquatic ectotherms adapt to their
environments in several diverse ways. According to R. Aiden Martin (2003), “The resting
metabolic rate of an animal is known as its Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR). BMR is usually the
minimal rate of energy expenditure necessary to maintain life processes. When BMR for a given
animal is subtracted from its „active‟ rate, the difference represents the amount of energy it can
direct toward greater levels of activity.” For example, a shark‟s respiration rate is dependent on
the amount of food necessary to maintain its body temperature; if the water is too cold/hot a
shark must decelerate/accelerate its metabolism to maintain life functions. Goldfish, like the
shark, are aquatic ectoderms, but it is possible they regulate their metabolism in a different way.
It is thought that aquatic ectotherms can only regulate their body temperature through adapting
their eating habits or physical endurance, but respiration regulation is also important. “Goldfish
may be coldwater fish, but this does not mean they can tolerate rapid changes in temperature.
The sudden shift in temperature that comes at night, for example in an office building where a
goldfish might be kept in a small office tank, could kill them, especially in winter” (“Goldfish”).
The dependent variable for this experiment was the respiration rate of the goldfish, and the
independent variable was the temperature of the water. The null hypothesis is that the water
temperature will not affect the respiration rate of the goldfish; this means that despite all our
efforts to slow, accelerate, or halt the animal‟s respiration rate, change in water temperature will
not promote a change in respiration. The alternative hypothesis suggests that a change in water
temperature will affect the normal respiratory patterns of the goldfish; the hypothesis suggests
that this treatment, given to a goldfish normally kept in a room-temperature environment, will
have a significant impact on the rate of respiration.
Materials and Methods
This experiment began by filling two 600 mL beakers with 150 mL of aged water. Two
goldfish were each introduced into a separate 600 mL beaker. The beakers containing goldfish
were referred to as “Beaker A” and “Beaker B.” Beaker A contained the control fish and Beaker
B contained the fish exposed to the experimental treatment. Two more beakers were filled, one
with ice water and the other with aged water (amounts not specified). The water temperature of
both Beaker A and Beaker B was measured using a thermometer and then recorded. Counting the
number of breaths each goldfish made in a given minute ensured accurate data. Goldfish breaths
can be identified by either counting the number of times the fish opens and closes its mouth or by
counting the number of times the goldfish‟s operculum contracts. Once the temperatures of both
Beaker A and Beaker B were recorded, ice water was added to Beaker B (experiment fish) until
the temperature of that beaker decreased by 2˚ C. Aged water was then added to Beaker A
(control) in order to make the water level in both Beaker A and Beaker B equal levels. After new
temperatures were recorded, the number of breaths taken by both fish within a one minute
timeframe was also counted and recorded. This process was repeated six more times and each
time the water temperature in Beaker B was lowered two more degrees. The water temperature in
Beaker B ranged from 20˚ (at the beginning) to 8˚C (at the end), and as the temperature
decreased, the goldfish‟s respiration rate also decreased drastically.
Results
The average respiration rate for all six control goldfish ranged from 120 to 99 breaths per
minute (not a significant change). The average results for all groups that experimented using a
control fish showed that water temperature did promote changes in the goldfish‟s respiration rate.
Through cold water treatments, on average, the respiration rate of the experimental fish ranged
from 120 breaths per minute at the beginning of the experiment to 28 breaths per minute towards
the end of the experiment. The experimental fish in Group #3 ranged from 95 to 11 breaths per
minute. The only variable that changed throughout all six groups was the water temperature; this
factor was induced on each experimental goldfish before its respiration rate was measured. The
data collected provided evidence that the independent variable for this experiment truly was the
water temperature.
Discussion
After completion of the experiment the null hypothesis and alternative hypothesis were
reviewed once more, and because the water temperature did affect the normal respiratory
patterns of the goldfish, the null hypothesis was rejected and the alternative hypothesis was
accepted. Although other environmental factors may play a small role in the respiration rate of
aquatic ectotherms, the experiment provided evidence that water temperature was greatly
responsible. The biological significance of the experiment was that scientists may conclude that
many other freshwater fish, of a similar nature, become inactive during the winter months due to
the drop in water temperature. The results of the experiment may be applied to the real world by
concluding that perhaps water temperature is responsible for why sport fishing in Louisiana
occurs predominantly in the spring and summer months; the water is warmer and the fish require
more food to maintain their respiration and metabolism. Although the results of this experiment
were concise, several errors could have occurred. For example, if the fish did not remain calm
long enough to accurately measure its respiration rate, an inaccurate measurement may have
been documented which could easily compromise the entire experiment. Before and after the
experiment all the fish used were kept in the same aquarium, which excites the question of
whether or not any of the fish were diseased. Some of the fish may have processed certain
diseases or defects that could have already impacted their respiration rates. A more accurate
experiment may have taken place had there been more groups testing it; the more an experiment
is replicated the more accurate the results. This experiment could have been adapted or modified
to show that as respiration rate decreases, so does the fish‟s metabolism rate. Metabolism rate
could easily be added to the experiment by testing the readiness for the fish to eat at each
temperature tested. The experiment would be more time consuming because the fish would need
to be kept at each tested temperature for a much lengthier time period, and the fish would
theoretically need to be hungry every time the metabolism rate was tested.
Literature Cited
“Goldfish”. Wikipedia Online Encyclopedia. 8 Feb. 2009. 9 Feb. 2009
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfish>.
Martin, R. Aiden. “Fuel Economy of the White Shark”. ReefQuest Center for Shark Research.
2003. 9 Feb. 2009 < http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/white_shark/
metabolism.htm>.
White, M. E. and F. M. Campo. 2004. Investigations in Biology. 3rd ed. The McGraw-Hill Co.
Inc., New York, NY, USA. "
Now, what I wanted you to take from it is that the goldfish in question started at 68 degrees Fahrenheit taking around 120 breaths per minute and when they got down to 46 degrees they only took in around 28 breaths per minute.
Now, take a look at this. https://www.jbl.de/en/products/detail/2324/jbl-oxytabs What you should see is that the oxygen tablets each are good for 10 liters of water and that the maker recommends 8 hours for transporting fish using these.
This is where it gets tricky so pay attention. For what I am about to do I will use the goldfish in place of the rosy reds since I can't find the same information with rosy reds as the goldfish, this is actually better I think as the goldfish are a thicker body fish who are more likely to use more oxygen than a rosy red.
So, the oxygen tablets most likely got the 8 hours by using a normal temperature which we will say is 68 degrees. At 68 degrees the goldfish were taking 120 breaths per minute. Now we get down to 46 degrees where they take only 28 breaths per minute. 120/28=4.3
120 normal breaths per minute, 60 minutes in an hour, 7,200 normal breaths in an hour, 57,600 normal breaths in 8 hours. Lets say the makers of the oxygen tablet were accounting for 57,600 breaths. We now have 28 cool breaths in a cool minute, 1,680 cool breaths in a cool hour, 13,440 cool breaths in cool 8 hours. The difference between the cool and normal breaths is a multiplication rate f 4.3.
That means following the 10 liters you would get 34.3 hours out of 1 oxygen tablet at 46 degrees.
The tablets were for 10 liters which is 338 ounces. We only have 20 ounces of water. 338/20=16.9
Now I'm not 100%sure I am doing this correctly but I believe that I multiple 16.9 and 34.3 to get 579.7 which is the hours you could have the fish in the cup for.
If you divide that by 24 (24 hours in a day) then you get 24.2 days.
I hope this makes sense and if it doesn't or you with to comment on something then please feel free to do so.
Ok this has nothing to do with the minnows but I'd like to draw your attention to this quote from the original article "https://oklahoman.com/article/2650361/machines-are-a-bait-off-anglers-shoulders", "Minnows sell for $2 a dozen; crawdads are $2.50 a dozen; and nightcrawlers are $2 a dozen or $5 for 24. The catfish bait is $3.50. " A dozen is 12, two dozedn is 24. You can get 1 dozen night crawlers for $2 but 2 dozen costs $5? This makes no sense when you first look at it but most likely the owner is doing this to make you think "Hmm, The owner must think I'm too stupid not to notice this so I'll buy 1 dozen twice and save a dollar!" What the owner was doing was trying to make you think that you outsmarted him by buying the two individual dozens but infact you just bought the two dozen regardless so the owner still made money and will make more money when someone doesn't notice the price difference.
There are 12 rosy red minnows in that cup. (The article says they are fat head minnows but as far as I can tell they are clearly not)
The temperature of the water is cooled down to 40 degrees.
Based off of this, https://www.baitvendingcups.com/ , I am going to assume that the styrofoam cup in question is the 20 ounce version.
I have "confirmed" that by going to this site, https://www.baitvendingcups.com/ , finding this quote
"The polymos, Inc. 20 oz Live bait Vending Cups are premium insulated cups that are superior to any other vending cups on the market and are the only cups that can be used in the older LB 170 Live Bait Vendor machines. There are two types of vending bait cups - The round minnow cup and the round bait cup. Both look alike and are the same dimensions of 4.75" H x 4.25" W"
then calculating the volume. If you use the formula for finding the volume of a cylinder (Pi (3.14) times the radius raised to the second power times height) the numbers given then you get .29 gallons. I converted gallons to ounces and got 37.12 ounces.
Ok, that went wrong and the reason why is because the numbers given are expressing the outside diameter of the cup and not the inside. Lets subtract one inch from the width to account for the thick styrofoam so we now have 4.75 inches for height and 3.25 inches for width.
We use the formula (I recommend just using an online calculator for this to save yourself the headache) and you get .17 gallons. Converted to ounces you get 21.76 ounces. That is close enough.
Now, take a look back at the picture provided by op and look at the gravel. That doesn't look like normal gravel to me. That looks more like zeolite, a substance used to remove ammonia in the fish keeping hobby.
(A few links I found about zeolite in the aquaria, http://forum.livefish.com.au/discussion/771/zeolite-if-your-using-or-tried-it-tell-your-story , https://ymlp.com/zqZeNJ , https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_Clinoptilolite_on_Aquarium_Water_Conditions , If you google "zeolite for shipping fish" then the first result should be a pdf file from https://agrilifecdn.tamu.edu which is quite a good read, a bit advanced but I'd recommend it to other people to read.)
Now, lets get to the temperature decrease and the oxygen tablets.
If you google "The Effect of Water Temperature on Goldfish Respiration Rate" then you should come upon a pdf file from www.southeastern.edu Here is what it says,
"The purpose of this experiment was to identify the effect of cold water temperature on the
respiration rate of a Carassius auratus—goldfish. Respiration (breathing) is the way organisms
exchange gases with their environment. Aerobic respiration, also known as aerobic metabolism
in the Kingdom Animalia, occurs when oxygen is taken into the body and sent to all its cells; it is
then used to break down food for energy (White and Campo 2004). All organisms experience
respiration differently; lungs, gills, tracheae, and integument are all different structures equipped
for making respiration possible. Animals that depend on their environment for body temperature
are called ectotherms. Endotherms are warm blooded organisms that regulate their body
temperatures internally, despite their environment. All aquatic ectotherms adapt to their
environments in several diverse ways. According to R. Aiden Martin (2003), “The resting
metabolic rate of an animal is known as its Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR). BMR is usually the
minimal rate of energy expenditure necessary to maintain life processes. When BMR for a given
animal is subtracted from its „active‟ rate, the difference represents the amount of energy it can
direct toward greater levels of activity.” For example, a shark‟s respiration rate is dependent on
the amount of food necessary to maintain its body temperature; if the water is too cold/hot a
shark must decelerate/accelerate its metabolism to maintain life functions. Goldfish, like the
shark, are aquatic ectoderms, but it is possible they regulate their metabolism in a different way.
It is thought that aquatic ectotherms can only regulate their body temperature through adapting
their eating habits or physical endurance, but respiration regulation is also important. “Goldfish
may be coldwater fish, but this does not mean they can tolerate rapid changes in temperature.
The sudden shift in temperature that comes at night, for example in an office building where a
goldfish might be kept in a small office tank, could kill them, especially in winter” (“Goldfish”).
The dependent variable for this experiment was the respiration rate of the goldfish, and the
independent variable was the temperature of the water. The null hypothesis is that the water
temperature will not affect the respiration rate of the goldfish; this means that despite all our
efforts to slow, accelerate, or halt the animal‟s respiration rate, change in water temperature will
not promote a change in respiration. The alternative hypothesis suggests that a change in water
temperature will affect the normal respiratory patterns of the goldfish; the hypothesis suggests
that this treatment, given to a goldfish normally kept in a room-temperature environment, will
have a significant impact on the rate of respiration.
Materials and Methods
This experiment began by filling two 600 mL beakers with 150 mL of aged water. Two
goldfish were each introduced into a separate 600 mL beaker. The beakers containing goldfish
were referred to as “Beaker A” and “Beaker B.” Beaker A contained the control fish and Beaker
B contained the fish exposed to the experimental treatment. Two more beakers were filled, one
with ice water and the other with aged water (amounts not specified). The water temperature of
both Beaker A and Beaker B was measured using a thermometer and then recorded. Counting the
number of breaths each goldfish made in a given minute ensured accurate data. Goldfish breaths
can be identified by either counting the number of times the fish opens and closes its mouth or by
counting the number of times the goldfish‟s operculum contracts. Once the temperatures of both
Beaker A and Beaker B were recorded, ice water was added to Beaker B (experiment fish) until
the temperature of that beaker decreased by 2˚ C. Aged water was then added to Beaker A
(control) in order to make the water level in both Beaker A and Beaker B equal levels. After new
temperatures were recorded, the number of breaths taken by both fish within a one minute
timeframe was also counted and recorded. This process was repeated six more times and each
time the water temperature in Beaker B was lowered two more degrees. The water temperature in
Beaker B ranged from 20˚ (at the beginning) to 8˚C (at the end), and as the temperature
decreased, the goldfish‟s respiration rate also decreased drastically.
Results
The average respiration rate for all six control goldfish ranged from 120 to 99 breaths per
minute (not a significant change). The average results for all groups that experimented using a
control fish showed that water temperature did promote changes in the goldfish‟s respiration rate.
Through cold water treatments, on average, the respiration rate of the experimental fish ranged
from 120 breaths per minute at the beginning of the experiment to 28 breaths per minute towards
the end of the experiment. The experimental fish in Group #3 ranged from 95 to 11 breaths per
minute. The only variable that changed throughout all six groups was the water temperature; this
factor was induced on each experimental goldfish before its respiration rate was measured. The
data collected provided evidence that the independent variable for this experiment truly was the
water temperature.
Discussion
After completion of the experiment the null hypothesis and alternative hypothesis were
reviewed once more, and because the water temperature did affect the normal respiratory
patterns of the goldfish, the null hypothesis was rejected and the alternative hypothesis was
accepted. Although other environmental factors may play a small role in the respiration rate of
aquatic ectotherms, the experiment provided evidence that water temperature was greatly
responsible. The biological significance of the experiment was that scientists may conclude that
many other freshwater fish, of a similar nature, become inactive during the winter months due to
the drop in water temperature. The results of the experiment may be applied to the real world by
concluding that perhaps water temperature is responsible for why sport fishing in Louisiana
occurs predominantly in the spring and summer months; the water is warmer and the fish require
more food to maintain their respiration and metabolism. Although the results of this experiment
were concise, several errors could have occurred. For example, if the fish did not remain calm
long enough to accurately measure its respiration rate, an inaccurate measurement may have
been documented which could easily compromise the entire experiment. Before and after the
experiment all the fish used were kept in the same aquarium, which excites the question of
whether or not any of the fish were diseased. Some of the fish may have processed certain
diseases or defects that could have already impacted their respiration rates. A more accurate
experiment may have taken place had there been more groups testing it; the more an experiment
is replicated the more accurate the results. This experiment could have been adapted or modified
to show that as respiration rate decreases, so does the fish‟s metabolism rate. Metabolism rate
could easily be added to the experiment by testing the readiness for the fish to eat at each
temperature tested. The experiment would be more time consuming because the fish would need
to be kept at each tested temperature for a much lengthier time period, and the fish would
theoretically need to be hungry every time the metabolism rate was tested.
Literature Cited
“Goldfish”. Wikipedia Online Encyclopedia. 8 Feb. 2009. 9 Feb. 2009
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfish>.
Martin, R. Aiden. “Fuel Economy of the White Shark”. ReefQuest Center for Shark Research.
2003. 9 Feb. 2009 < http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/white_shark/
metabolism.htm>.
White, M. E. and F. M. Campo. 2004. Investigations in Biology. 3rd ed. The McGraw-Hill Co.
Inc., New York, NY, USA. "
Now, what I wanted you to take from it is that the goldfish in question started at 68 degrees Fahrenheit taking around 120 breaths per minute and when they got down to 46 degrees they only took in around 28 breaths per minute.
Now, take a look at this. https://www.jbl.de/en/products/detail/2324/jbl-oxytabs What you should see is that the oxygen tablets each are good for 10 liters of water and that the maker recommends 8 hours for transporting fish using these.
This is where it gets tricky so pay attention. For what I am about to do I will use the goldfish in place of the rosy reds since I can't find the same information with rosy reds as the goldfish, this is actually better I think as the goldfish are a thicker body fish who are more likely to use more oxygen than a rosy red.
So, the oxygen tablets most likely got the 8 hours by using a normal temperature which we will say is 68 degrees. At 68 degrees the goldfish were taking 120 breaths per minute. Now we get down to 46 degrees where they take only 28 breaths per minute. 120/28=4.3
120 normal breaths per minute, 60 minutes in an hour, 7,200 normal breaths in an hour, 57,600 normal breaths in 8 hours. Lets say the makers of the oxygen tablet were accounting for 57,600 breaths. We now have 28 cool breaths in a cool minute, 1,680 cool breaths in a cool hour, 13,440 cool breaths in cool 8 hours. The difference between the cool and normal breaths is a multiplication rate f 4.3.
That means following the 10 liters you would get 34.3 hours out of 1 oxygen tablet at 46 degrees.
The tablets were for 10 liters which is 338 ounces. We only have 20 ounces of water. 338/20=16.9
Now I'm not 100%sure I am doing this correctly but I believe that I multiple 16.9 and 34.3 to get 579.7 which is the hours you could have the fish in the cup for.
If you divide that by 24 (24 hours in a day) then you get 24.2 days.
I hope this makes sense and if it doesn't or you with to comment on something then please feel free to do so.
Ok this has nothing to do with the minnows but I'd like to draw your attention to this quote from the original article "https://oklahoman.com/article/2650361/machines-are-a-bait-off-anglers-shoulders", "Minnows sell for $2 a dozen; crawdads are $2.50 a dozen; and nightcrawlers are $2 a dozen or $5 for 24. The catfish bait is $3.50. " A dozen is 12, two dozedn is 24. You can get 1 dozen night crawlers for $2 but 2 dozen costs $5? This makes no sense when you first look at it but most likely the owner is doing this to make you think "Hmm, The owner must think I'm too stupid not to notice this so I'll buy 1 dozen twice and save a dollar!" What the owner was doing was trying to make you think that you outsmarted him by buying the two individual dozens but infact you just bought the two dozen regardless so the owner still made money and will make more money when someone doesn't notice the price difference.
