How do you take care of ammonia spikes?
- Thread starter redtailfool
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Plants, plants. plants, they lock up nitrogen/ammonia products and every time you harvest you export the garbage, and you can trade them for feeders,etc.
Okay, I'm sensing a little hostility here, but I can handle it. I don't recall making assumptions about anyone. I'm sure a lot of you are experienced keepers and know what you're doing.
Let's do this one at a time. I'm new to 'this' forum and haven't quite gotten to know any of you. I don't know your experience levels, so I'm putting down information that can hopefully help anyone, and that includes somewhat obvious things. There may be some reader out there that doesn't really know what to do or how to do it right. This statement was made: "Doing water changes will not affect the nitrifying bacteria." Well, the fact is, it can. I was simply backing up my response by stating how. I never said a word implying that nobody here knows how to use water conditioner. Oh, and some of us 'GC' people, who I might add are some of the most knowledgeable and experienced people out there, know how to get by without the water conditioners. And if some of those guys can figure out how to breed just about anything, then I don't think I'll hold it against them for not using dechlorinator once in a while.
When discussing the temperature issue, you told me to, "DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT." Well....I do. I adjust the temperature. I do recall stating, "Sure it's easy to match the temperature..." I wasn't complaining about it. I also DO sometimes test my water before a change, but, like you, I haven't really had to worry about it. Again, my whole explanation there was in consideration of someone reading who may be going through the situation.
The whole thing about the osmotic balance was just another part of another explanation. The hard evidence can be found in these things called 'books,' or other knowledgeable hobbyists. But be careful, don't just look through any book. Try to focus on ones dealing with the biology and anatomy of fish.
You are absolutely right about the different ways you can cause cloudy water. My mentioning the CO2 was just another example of the way I prefer to attach an explanation, rather than just make a definite statement. I was simply giving an example of how fish can be stressed from a water change.
That's fine that you're content with your weekly massive water changes. Heck, it's worked for me in the past as well, especiallywith larger fish. I DON'T do water changes several times a week unless there's a problem with the tank, or I'm working on some sort of breeding project, or I'm experimenting on different ways of raising certain fry. I only do one 20-30% change on each tanks. Sometimes I can even go two weeks (although rarely). I can get away with this because I also don't overcrowd my tanks. Or, maybe it's all the little 'dainty' fish I keep that don't produce as much bioload.
Also, sure this is 'monsterfishkeepers.com.' I'm not trying to tell everyone all about how to keep 'dainty tetras and danios.' Sure I've got a monster of my own, but I've also got those dainty fish too. I could be wrong but maybe someone else on this site does too. In fact, quite a few hobbyists made there way into fishkeeping by starting out with those dainty fish. But hey, there are also those who just jumped right into buying a big-ass fish to put into a small-ass tank. Again, no assumptions are being made. The fact is that it is all related.
Sorry if I sounded like a complete smartass, or offended any of you. That's not my intention, but I felt I needed to throw some defense out there. I'm telling anyone how to keep their fish, but was merely responding to statements, questions, and the initial topic itself. But apparently this the initial topic has been blown way out of proportion.
Chris C.
Let's do this one at a time. I'm new to 'this' forum and haven't quite gotten to know any of you. I don't know your experience levels, so I'm putting down information that can hopefully help anyone, and that includes somewhat obvious things. There may be some reader out there that doesn't really know what to do or how to do it right. This statement was made: "Doing water changes will not affect the nitrifying bacteria." Well, the fact is, it can. I was simply backing up my response by stating how. I never said a word implying that nobody here knows how to use water conditioner. Oh, and some of us 'GC' people, who I might add are some of the most knowledgeable and experienced people out there, know how to get by without the water conditioners. And if some of those guys can figure out how to breed just about anything, then I don't think I'll hold it against them for not using dechlorinator once in a while.
When discussing the temperature issue, you told me to, "DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT." Well....I do. I adjust the temperature. I do recall stating, "Sure it's easy to match the temperature..." I wasn't complaining about it. I also DO sometimes test my water before a change, but, like you, I haven't really had to worry about it. Again, my whole explanation there was in consideration of someone reading who may be going through the situation.
The whole thing about the osmotic balance was just another part of another explanation. The hard evidence can be found in these things called 'books,' or other knowledgeable hobbyists. But be careful, don't just look through any book. Try to focus on ones dealing with the biology and anatomy of fish.
You are absolutely right about the different ways you can cause cloudy water. My mentioning the CO2 was just another example of the way I prefer to attach an explanation, rather than just make a definite statement. I was simply giving an example of how fish can be stressed from a water change.
That's fine that you're content with your weekly massive water changes. Heck, it's worked for me in the past as well, especiallywith larger fish. I DON'T do water changes several times a week unless there's a problem with the tank, or I'm working on some sort of breeding project, or I'm experimenting on different ways of raising certain fry. I only do one 20-30% change on each tanks. Sometimes I can even go two weeks (although rarely). I can get away with this because I also don't overcrowd my tanks. Or, maybe it's all the little 'dainty' fish I keep that don't produce as much bioload.
Also, sure this is 'monsterfishkeepers.com.' I'm not trying to tell everyone all about how to keep 'dainty tetras and danios.' Sure I've got a monster of my own, but I've also got those dainty fish too. I could be wrong but maybe someone else on this site does too. In fact, quite a few hobbyists made there way into fishkeeping by starting out with those dainty fish. But hey, there are also those who just jumped right into buying a big-ass fish to put into a small-ass tank. Again, no assumptions are being made. The fact is that it is all related.
Sorry if I sounded like a complete smartass, or offended any of you. That's not my intention, but I felt I needed to throw some defense out there. I'm telling anyone how to keep their fish, but was merely responding to statements, questions, and the initial topic itself. But apparently this the initial topic has been blown way out of proportion.
Chris C.
plants remove nitrates, yes, thereby completing the entire nitrogen cycle
HOWEVER
fish still release other substances in their waste, referred to as DOCs (Dissolved Organic Compounds). Hormones and other protein byproducts of the fish are released regularly, and laboratory experiments have demonstrated that high concentrations of DOCs have a negative impact on general fish health. There is no known way to stop DOCs, aside from removing them from the water. Thereby making water changes still necessary, if you want to keep a sound mind on your fish's health.
HOWEVER
fish still release other substances in their waste, referred to as DOCs (Dissolved Organic Compounds). Hormones and other protein byproducts of the fish are released regularly, and laboratory experiments have demonstrated that high concentrations of DOCs have a negative impact on general fish health. There is no known way to stop DOCs, aside from removing them from the water. Thereby making water changes still necessary, if you want to keep a sound mind on your fish's health.
Dude, no hostility! We can disagree. When I can keep tanks I keep them 70's style it works and I'm used to it. There are better ways. P45 talks 2 loud but is friendly, I think he juist likes to argue , def better ways to keep tanks but I like old dutch.
Water changes and every other month vacuom 1/2gravel, if you have worm colonies you should scatter thrm before cleaning that part Load your tanks lightly, a good mix will live almost forever. I got lucky , I hav never had a bad tank and peoplle I know have staeted tanks same way and had them go south. 
guppy said:
P45 is correct, plants cannot be used inplace of filtration or water changes..
Plants are also VERY ineffective at removing N03.
Amano wanabe said:Okay, I'm finding out that (I wish I would have thought of it earlier) smaller,faster fish usually will have a larger gill surface area to body mass ratio (more gill space compared to body mass) as compared to a larger, slower moving fish. This should allow fish with more gill surface area to body mass the ability to retrieve more oxygen, possibly allowing them to handle changes better. Since these fish occur more often in flowing water, this would make sense that they can handle constantly different water flowing around them.
However, it would make sense that larger fish would be able to handle changes a little better, at least from what I've observed in my experience. Their organs would be larger, obviously, as compared to smaller fish. This should mean that it would take longer and more water to affect them. I'm really not sure either way, so this is still kind of up in the air for me. I do know fry don't handle this nearly as well as their adult counterparts due to thier lack of developement. And there are also many species that are exceptions to everything I've said.
In a large water change, there is going to be more CO2 coming out of its compressed state, which can 'shock' a fish's system. I've been told that this is actually what the initial cloudiness is when you add new water. This can also be avoided by running an airstone through the new water before you add it. Many of us don't have time to do this, myself included, and run the water directly into the tank. So, water changes do affect fish in some way.
About the huge water change:
Sure, 'if' done correctly, this can be pulled off. However, for many, what is the likelyhood that pH of the tap will be relatively the same as the tanks water. If a tank has not received a water change in quite some time and is fed regularly, the water will gradually become acidic, which is due to dissolved ions multiplying severely. I don't know how water is in your area, but mine is a bit on the alkaline side. Sure it's easy to match the temperature, but pH can be a little tricky. This can be avoided by keeping up on the water changes and keeping the tank clean.
About the fish adaptation:
Fish do become accustomed to the water they are in, whether it's causing them to thrive, or slowly die. If you drastically alter the water they are in, this will throw off their osmotic balances. Their bodies are now forced to adapt, which causes stress, and leaves them open to illness. With small water changes, it's easy too slowly ween fish off of bad water. Well, its a lot easier than getting someone to stop smoking.
Now to the final one:
Doing a water change definitely can affect the amount of nitrifying bacteria in a tank. A monstrous water change can nearly wipe out a bacterial colony if you're using tap water. There is almost certainly going to be chlorine in tap. Bacteria have only a double cell membrane, and not a complex system like the fish. It's much easier to kill the bacteria than the fish. This is why it's not always the best idea to rinse bio-wheals or other colonizing mediums with tap water. This will kill off much if not all of the bacteria.
I credit a ton of this information to buddies of mine at the GCAS. Check out this thread on the site if you want: http://www.gcas.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3455
Now my hands really are falling off.
Chris C.
Smaller fish have a larger gill surface area pound for pound because their motabolizm is MUCH higher then larger fish. If you have watched closely, you will see that they breath much faster then larger fish aswell.
THis will not effect the toxicity of toxins present in the water... It will NOT effect the fishes tolerance to PH/TEMP/GH changes. A larger fish will not have more tolerance to a difference in parameters then a smaller. You have no information supporting this. Simply stating that fish have more gill surface area and larger fish have larger organs doesnt mean anything. CO2 will not SHOCK fish. where the hell are you getting this?
Please, point me in the direction of a scientific article that suggests different.
Any experienced fishkeeper can easily pull of a large water change. I should not have to explain how to gauge your PH and GH before adding the new water in.. Its simple. Also, if you maintain your tank well, there will not be a difference.
Also- the water becomes acidic from acidic byproducts released from nitrification, NOT from Ions multiplying (what the f*** Ions are you talking about?)... where the hell are you getting this?
NO, fish DONNOT become "addicted" to toxins within the water. They DONT become Tolerant either, they will slowely develope problems, and then die premature. YOU CANNOT SHOCK A FISH BY TAKING OUT NH3 OR NO2 OR NO3.... where the HELL are you getting this info?
and NO, doing a large water change will not harm your biological bed... The only way that is possible is to change the water parameters to rapidly... AND EVEN THEN, the bacteria can easily overcome it because they encase them selfs in a "bubble" like cocoon that protects them against sudden atmospheric changes. THEY ARE NOT free floating in the water, they are held down to the surface areas with little "hairs" that act as sticky anchors.
Only complete idiots add tape water into the fishtank without dechlorinating it.. Not only will the bacteria suffer, but so will the fish and plants.... and also, only newbies wash filter media off in water that has chlorine in it. this is common sence, who the hell is adding chlorine into their tank???
Amano wanabe said:
1) No, what you are saying is false, with just as bad suporting information. Doing large water changes will not effect Nitrifying bacteria... UNLESS they are done wrong. Even so, tell me, tell me how PH effects bacteria please, tell me how PH effects fish. If you cannot readily answer, you need not to question me.
2) Your idea of osmotic balance is faulty and has nothing to do with the fishes ability to tolerate toxins. Osmotic ballance generally refures to ballancing of H2O and NaCl's (and other disolved compounds) in a cell or body(in this case freshwater fish) to maintain homeostasis. In this case freshwater fish are constantly drinking water and expelling it to retain salts... There is little NaCl found in freshwater so freshwater fish have to drink over time to maintain a healthy balance within the body. Marine fish are the opposite, they are constantly expelling salts and retaining water.
3) Please, explain to me EXACTLY how CO2 effects the clairity of the water durring a water change... also, explain to me WHERE this extra CO2 comes from.
P-45 is 100% correct. WHy do people question him?
hell, why do people question ME....................
guppy said:Water changes and every other month vacuom 1/2gravel, if you have worm colonies you should scatter thrm before cleaning that part Load your tanks lightly, a good mix will live almost forever. I got lucky , I hav never had a bad tank and peoplle I know have staeted tanks same way and had them go south.
"bad tank"
That is a term used by people who dont know whats going on...
There is no such thing as a bad tank.. wtf...
Worm colonies? tell me, what are these worms? and what do they do?
lets see what you got.
