How Important Is Bio Media?

[dwilder]

here is the main web site it has a couple of more interesting articles you might enjoy http://www.bioconlabs.com/fritzyme.html

 

[sostoudt]

　
I bet Seachem would hate for this to become commonly accepted, as they suggest otherwise…

are you sure Nitrobacteraceaeare species is seachems culture as i dont think they said what theres is, i noticed that fact also a while ago so it leads me to believe they dont use that type.

but i guess theres always the possibility new species are discovered, however occams razor tells me its the first conclusion i came too.

 

[Toby_H]

I've read that gram negative bacteria very y form spores... Ammonia & Nitrite oxidizers are gram negative.

There are a limited number of bacteria species that oxidize ammonia or nitrite... and I have never been able to find anything that suggests that any of the ammonia or nitrite oxidizing bacteria sporulate...

But you are absolutely correct that Seachem does not discolose details on what "bacteria spores" they use, therefore it would be exceptionally difficult to prove their claim untrue... if it is untrue...

I'm not sure if it is true or not...

 

[sushiray]

wow! this conversation is still going on?! it takes a village... at least we're past the math tests!!

8=)

 

[hybridtheoryd16]

While it is true that at lower PH values toxic ammonia is converted to less toxic ammonium...

It is not true to suggest that at lower PH values no biological filtration is needed...

Bacteria will still develop and will convert ammonium into nitrite just like it converts ammonia into nitrite... and nitrite is no les toxic at lower PH values. I have read that it is more toxic, though I read this in fish hobby articles, not scientific studies...

you sort of answered my explanation 100%.

See, In this low ph case if you have no biological bacteria then there would be no nitrite to harm the fish. Just nontoxic ammonium.

This is the exact reason that most low ph tank owners run a low grade antibiotic in there systems at all times to keep bio-bacteria from forming just as we would harmful bacteria.

Wow nutcase I am suprized.

I would have thought you would have known this with all your knowledge of biological filtration. I would guess that your fish keeping has never dealt with the low ph spectrum and all that it has to offer or suffer from. lol

 

[Toby_H]

I would have thought you would have known this with all your knowledge of biological filtration. I would guess that your fish keeping has never dealt with the low ph spectrum and all that it has to offer or suffer from. lol

Actually, it's quite the opposite...

Charlotte water is quite soft... PH of around 6.5, with 0KH... and I have quite a bit of driftwood to boot... Therefore in most of my tanks the PH hangs around 6.0... When I was breeding Apistos it took very little work to keep their PH low enough to be 'off the chart' on the low side...

I've lived in Charlotte for about 8 years having no less than 300 gallons of aquariumsand up to 1500 gallons of aquariums overt entire time...

So my understanding of ammonia/ammonium in low PH conditions is not only based on what I've read, but what I have personally experienced...


In my tanks... when I use conventional aquarium tests to test uncycled tanks, they detect ammonia... when I do a fishless cycle the ammonia/ammonium they detect is then converted into nitrite... then nitrite is converted into nitrate...

My mature tanks develop nitrates at approx the same rates I have experienced when living in areas with harder / higher PH water...


Based on ample personal experience... I firmly believe that a mature aquarium converts ammonium into nitrite and nitrite into nitrate... just like like it converts ammonia into nitrite and nitrite into nitrate... If this process did not take place, I would not find nitrates in my water, which I do...

I've also been active in the Charlotte Area's fish club for years and we all get nitrate build up. "New Tank Syndrom" is just as big of a concern in our area...


Therefore... in low PH conditions.... the LESS toxic ammonium, IS converted into nitrite which is no less toxic at low PH levels... and I have read in some places nitrite is more toxic in low PH conditions, although I cannot suggest that last part with certainty (nitrites being more toxic at low PH)...

 

[hybridtheoryd16]

Sorry I think we got mixed up somewhere. Everything I was saying was in regards to low ph breeding set ups. And not show tanks.

A bio filter has zero problems maturing in ph's this low (6 or so).

In a show tank or any tank that will house fish for extended periods of time I personally would grow a biological filter asap.


But i was talking about the mentioned discus bredding facility. In the research I have done about these set ups they use the regimen I was refering to. And they run the low grade antibiotics and such to keep the biofilter from forming, only because there tanks will not hold fish for extended peroids of time. They usually run sponge filters and move the breeder fish around tank to tank so that they extend and mix the gene's.

And that is the only reason that I am aware of that they try so hard to keep bio bact from forming. Because the fish are never in the same tank for a extended period of time (aka to keep the cycle mature).

I guess it would have been better if I just stayed out of this thread. But I seen a little mis info and thought I would add something that I have researched extensively.

Sorry about that.

 

[Toby_H]

No need to feel you should stay out…
　
Due to the way I read your previous post I felt inclined to elaborate on my experience, but it wasn’t done so as an angry response at all. Just clarifying…
　
As for how Discus breeders run their tanks… I’m sure there are almost as many approaches as there are Discus breeders… I’m by no means suggesting one of them isn’t what you have described… And I have been able to see a couple that made the wannabe plumber in me drool…
　
I do know I have read some conflicting information regarding ammonia/ammonium at low PH levels… I have read that ammonium will oxidize into nitrite, and I’ve read that it won’t. Both from what appeared to be reliable scientific sources.
　
Based on personal experience… I am very convinced one of two things are taking place in my tanks. Either A) The Ammonia is turning into ammonium and then my bacteria is converting ammonium into nitrite (and so on), or B) The transformation of ammonia to ammonium at PH levels in the 5.5 range happens so slowly that the ammonia is able to be oxidized into nitrite before it can transform into ammonium…
　
Testing to prove which is literally the case is beyond my capabilities. And either way gives the same results, which is the ability to rely on bacteria for bio filtration the way everyone else does… But that is not to say that there are not other methods that will also work (such as what you suggested)…
　
And again, not arguing… just sharing…

 

[hybridtheoryd16]

Ok good deal

But about the ammonia ammonium deal.

I have never heard that ammonium would not convert to nitrite.

I (think) that every one of the products on the market that claim to block or get rid of ammonia instantly convert the ammonia to ammonium. Including the popular prime conditioner.

And it is said that the bio filter will consume the ammonium just like it would ammonia as a food source.

But this is all what I have read online and in mags. So take it for what it is.

I wish there was a readily availiable test that could differeniate between nh3/nh4. So we could learn more about this. I also wish i understood how the addition of 1 ion (?) makes ammonium fairly safe and ammonia highly toxic.

 

[Pharaoh]

Folks, keep this on topic and stop the personal attacks. Thanks.

Cleaned up a second time. Third time will get the thread closed. Keep the personal attacks out of the discussion.