how long can bacteria survive power outage

[Toby_H]

Thanks guys for not reading my post as being confrontational. It was not meant in an argumentative tone and looking back over it I see how it could have been read that way…

If we think back to filtration of 20 years ago… We didn’t have the internet so information was a lot more limited and new ideas tended to stay in smaller pockets and not hit the “mainstream”… but that’s another topic

HOB’s with replaceable filter cartridges or UGFs or sponge filters were the vast majority of what we used. A couple canisters existed but they surely weren’t common. Even with todays advancement in bio-chemical understanding of home aquaria we still regard UGF and sponge filters as good forms of bio filtration.

But lets look at the thousands of us that used HOBs with disposable cartridges. We didn’t know nearly as much about “cycling” a tank and many of us had our bouts of “new tank syndrome”… but in a mature, established (cycled) tank, ammonia and nitrites wee not an issue. Despite the fact we threw away or thoroughly rinsed (in tap water) the cartridges every week or two.

The lack of ammonia/nitrite build up can only be explained by the fact that there was plenty of available surface area in the aquarium outside the filter media…

Now how the media manufacturers took us from that point to believing we need to run canisters with media stocked specifically for infiltration, I have no idea…

Another point that bewilders me… it is commonly stated that sponge filters make great bio filters… but it is just as commonly said that an Aqua Clear filter with nothing but a sponge is a horrible bio-filter… Yet in both cases the medium that supports the bacteria is a sponge… The only real difference involved is flow rates, but consider how much slower a flow is by pushing it through a larger space… the water isn’t moving that quickly through the sponge in either filter…

I just started doing a little experiment with a bare 10 gal tank with an airstone… I’m going to ‘cycle’ it and then continually increase the amount of ammonia added daily until the system simply cannot support enough bacteria to consume an amount of ammonia. From there I will calculate the sq inches of surface space in the system and create a ratio of ammonia consumed per square inch. I don’t expect this experiment to produce numbers that will become an industry standard, but I think they will give us a general idea of what range to consider necessary…
Batang_Mcdo… I hope I didn’t pull your thread too far off course and if I did I do apologize. If your question has not been answered thorough enough please put us back on track to help you get a better answer.

Everyone Else… Thanks again for not taking my previous post(s) as being confrontationally. It was shared purely as a means of sharing a related thought and was not meant in any way to be argumentative… Thanks…

 

[tcarswell]

Thanks guys for not reading my post as being confrontational. It was not meant in an argumentative tone and looking back over it I see how it could have been read that way…

If we think back to filtration of 20 years ago… We didn’t have the internet so information was a lot more limited and new ideas tended to stay in smaller pockets and not hit the “mainstream”… but that’s another topic

HOB’s with replaceable filter cartridges or UGFs or sponge filters were the vast majority of what we used. A couple canisters existed but they surely weren’t common. Even with todays advancement in bio-chemical understanding of home aquaria we still regard UGF and sponge filters as good forms of bio filtration.

But lets look at the thousands of us that used HOBs with disposable cartridges. We didn’t know nearly as much about “cycling” a tank and many of us had our bouts of “new tank syndrome”… but in a mature, established (cycled) tank, ammonia and nitrites wee not an issue. Despite the fact we threw away or thoroughly rinsed (in tap water) the cartridges every week or two.

The lack of ammonia/nitrite build up can only be explained by the fact that there was plenty of available surface area in the aquarium outside the filter media…

Now how the media manufacturers took us from that point to believing we need to run canisters with media stocked specifically for infiltration, I have no idea…

Another point that bewilders me… it is commonly stated that sponge filters make great bio filters… but it is just as commonly said that an Aqua Clear filter with nothing but a sponge is a horrible bio-filter… Yet in both cases the medium that supports the bacteria is a sponge… The only real difference involved is flow rates, but consider how much slower a flow is by pushing it through a larger space… the water isn’t moving that quickly through the sponge in either filter…

I just started doing a little experiment with a bare 10 gal tank with an airstone… I’m going to ‘cycle’ it and then continually increase the amount of ammonia added daily until the system simply cannot support enough bacteria to consume an amount of ammonia. From there I will calculate the sq inches of surface space in the system and create a ratio of ammonia consumed per square inch. I don’t expect this experiment to produce numbers that will become an industry standard, but I think they will give us a general idea of what range to consider necessary…
Batang_Mcdo… I hope I didn’t pull your thread too far off course and if I did I do apologize. If your question has not been answered thorough enough please put us back on track to help you get a better answer.

Everyone Else… Thanks again for not taking my previous post(s) as being confrontationally. It was shared purely as a means of sharing a related thought and was not meant in any way to be argumentative… Thanks…

I always receive your posts as sharing of knowledge and nothing else. Everyone has different methods and online its very easy to misunderstand people. But in my book your a knowledgeable guy that wants to help others.

Oh and please please let me know the results of your experiment. Or better yet share them with the community and let me know!

 

[12 Volt Man]

but it is just as commonly said that an Aqua Clear filter with nothing but a sponge is a horrible bio-filter…

just because it is commonly stated does not mean it is correct

misinformation spreads rapidly in this day and age..

 

[12 Volt Man]

If the filter was not in use for 3~6 days... and the moment you plugged it in there was no sign of ammonia or nitrite...

Then this is proof that the vast majority of the bacteria in your system is in the aquarium, not in the canister filter...

Things like this make ya wonder how important bio media is doesn't it?

hence the whole idea behind undergravel filters.

the surface area of 100 pounds of gravel is immense.

the other thing to note is that if you have one population of bacteria living in the filter and another living in the aquarium itself (gravel, side walls, on decor etc) if the population living in the filter is unavailable, it just puts more stress on the population in the aquarium itself.

in other words, you provide them with more food per bacterium, they just have to consume it more quickly (and hence will also reproduce more quickly thanks to more available food - although this gets into other factors that affect growth (the stationary phase of growth as metabolic byproducts build up etc )

so, it although you may not have tons more bacteria in the aquarium itself, they can handle the added food source if necessary and do more work for short periods of time.

if you can initiate a 'log phase' where the bacteria are reproducing rapidly thanks to the increase in food, they can do more work -ie consume more ammonia - for a given time span.

 

[12 Volt Man]

for the record, during the great power outage in the summer of 2004, I was without power for 13 hours. I did not have any ammonia or nitrite spikes in any of my tanks, and they were all heavily stocked (many of you have seen the pics of my old tanks).

the only ill effects I had were my big barbs were breathing fairly heavily near the end..

the next day I went out and bought some battery powered air pumps

 

[Oolichan]

how many fish do you have and how big are they?

There are about 35" of malawi cichlids that get fed once a day. Fairly low bioload as the tank is growing out.

There is a lot of rock surface area though.

 

[Toby_H]

so, it although you may not have tons more bacteria in the aquarium itself, they can handle the added food source if necessary and do more work for short periods of time.
if you can initiate a 'log phase' where the bacteria are reproducing rapidly thanks to the increase in food, they can do more work -ie consume more ammonia - for a given time span.

Why would this only be “for a short period of time” or “for a given time span”…

It seems to me if the filter is cut off from the system… the increased food supply would cause the bacteria in the aquarium to “be fruitful and multiply”… until it was limited by either the food source or available surface area (which I’m thoroughly convinced won’t happen in typical aquarium conditions).

Since our bacteria has such a high reproductive rate, or doubling time… in a well matured system this shouldn’t take long at all… although whatever time frame it does take would be considered a “mini cycle”…

If I’ve overlooked something feel free to correct me…

 

[12 Volt Man]

it would be for a short period of time because the bacteria in the aquarium itself are not as likely to be able to handle the extra load long term.

short term yes - they multiply and handle the load.

but eventually their population levels off as cells die off, toxic byproducts of metabolism accumulate etc.

at this point, the fish are producing more ammonia than the population can handle and you get a spike - hence why you can't just shut off a filter and have the fish tank normally.

the reason that the bacteria in the tank itself cannot handle the load as well as the filter is because the bacteria living in the filter itself are going to be much more efficient at breaking down wastes because of the high flow rate of water through the filter - lots of oxygen means lots of bacteria.

in the aquarium itself - the bacteria on the walls have exposure to lots of oxygen since they are directly exposed to the circulating water, and those on the top layer of gravel. but thats about it.

without an undergravel filter the substrate layer near the bottom is not going to be exposed to lots of water circulation ie you dont generally get good water flow through gravel without aids.

so, this goes back to a point you made earlier - you may indeed have more bacteria in your filter and filter lines/tubes than in your substrate. simply because most of your the bacteria on your substrate are not exposed to oxygen rich water - only the bacteria living on the top layer of the gravel bed are. not the bacteria living on gravel in the middle and bottom of the gravel bed..

that doesnt mean there is no oxygen under your gravel bed - if there wasnt you would be getting anaerobic bacteria there which you generally dont. but it is not a zone that has as much oxygen as the top layer.

this is also why pythoning your gravel is so important. you turn over the gravel and essentially 'aerate it' as you clean it.

 

[Toby_H]

I’m not saying “you are wrong” and please do not take this as argumentative… Instead take it as an intelligent conversation comparing understandings and looking for a clearer understanding for both/all of us Keeping a friendly mood is important…

Bare in mind I am discussing a situation where temperature and circulation within the tank are not compromised... Which may not be the case in a power outage... but will be the case in a tank where someone forgot to turn the filter back on after maintenance yet had sufficient other forms of water circulation...

Compromising temperature and/or water movement will interfere with much of what I am suggesting...

it would be for a short period of time because the bacteria in the aquarium itself are not as likely to be able to handle the extra load long term.


short term yes - they multiply and handle the load.

In healthy conditions (primarily sufficient oxygen, food/ammonia & surface area) a bacterial cell spends it’s life growing… then splits in half into two smaller cells… then each cell grows… then each cell splits in half each forming two smaller cells… then those cells grow…

Therefore in healthy conditions, cells do not “die”… only when they lack the basic necessities do they die off…

but eventually their population levels off as cells die off, toxic byproducts of metabolism accumulate etc.

I agree the bacterial population will “level off”… due to levels of ammonia being produced and colonies rate of consuming ammonia balance… and at this point some bacteria which is produced/born may starve…

But this stage is the goal of healthy bio filtration… and I see no reason why the colonies numbers would fall below ‘enough’ to consume the available ammonia…

What "toxic byproducts" are you referring to here?

at this point, the fish are producing more ammonia than the population can handle and you get a spike - hence why you can't just shut off a filter and have the fish tank normally.

While I agree, in a healthy system, if you simply shut the filter off, since the filter contained a % of the bacteria previously “consuming” the ammonia/nitrite, you will get a spike. But when the bacterial colony in the tank increase to accommodate the bioload… the bio load will then be taken care of… and I see no reason that the bacteria in the tank would not be able to sustain this level… This last sentence seems to be the difference in our perspectives…

the reason that the bacteria in the tank itself cannot handle the load as well as the filter is because the bacteria living in the filter itself are going to be much more efficient at breaking down wastes because of the high flow rate of water through the filter - lots of oxygen means lots of bacteria.

Lots of oxygen in a canister filter? Why would the oxygen content in a canister filter be any higher than the oxygen content in the aquarium?

On the contrary, since the bacteria in the front of the canister is using up oxygen, in the middle/back of the canister there will be (slightly) less oxygen than in the aquarium…

Yet with HOB filters which are regarded as poor bio filters… the high rate of surface agitation in the HOB (primarily at the water surface where the intake enters the HOB) does create an “oxygen enriched” environment…

While I agree the flow pattern/rate of the filter will put the bacteria in contact with the ammonia/nitrite more efficiently than water simply moving around in the aquarium, This doesn’t make the bacteria in the filter any strong/different… and should not in any way suggest the bacteria in the aquarium itself is inefficient…

It's also worth pointing out that there are many areas withint the aquarium that have high flow rates... the surfaces near a filter intake sees just as much flow as the media inside the filter...

in the aquarium itself - the bacteria on the walls have exposure to lots of oxygen since they are directly exposed to the circulating water, and those on the top layer of gravel. but thats about it.

I agree, and would like to include décor in that list. But now calculate the available sq inches in your aquarium. I am thoroughly convinced that bio media manufacturers have most hobbyists completely mislead as to the quantity of “surface area” in a system that is needed/used…

without an undergravel filter the substrate layer near the bottom is not going to be exposed to lots of water circulation ie you dont generally get good water flow through gravel without aids.

I agree completely… and I would by no means include the “surface area” of gravel below the top .5" or so in an estimation of “available” surface area in a system…

so, this goes back to a point you made earlier - you may indeed have more bacteria in your filter and filter lines/tubes than in your substrate. simply because most of your the bacteria on your substrate are not exposed to oxygen rich water - only the bacteria living on the top layer of the gravel bed are. not the bacteria living on gravel in the middle and bottom of the gravel bed..


that doesnt mean there is no oxygen under your gravel bed - if there wasnt you would be getting anaerobic bacteria there which you generally dont. but it is not a zone that has as much oxygen as the top layer.

Right, if there is nothing down there using up the oxygen, it would simply remain suspended… There is some oxygen using action going on down there, but not much… and in sand there is less “flow’ going on down there than with gravel… and the deeper the substrate is the less flow there is going on in the bottom… which is why deep sand beds are required to produce denitrifying bacteria… but they aren’t nearly as effective at a given quantity as nitrifying bacteria because to have a oxygen depleted area there must be nearly no flow, thus nearly no “new” water gets exposed to the denitrifying bacteria…

I know that paragraph is a bit of a derailment of the overall line of discussion… but still interesting related info

this is also why pythoning your gravel is so important. you turn over the gravel and essentially 'aerate it' as you clean it.

But aren’t you also burying the bacteria covered gravel that was on top sinking it into areas with heavily decreased flow rates thus removing it’s bacteria from it’s food source?

But… since the bacteria we count on has a very fast “doubling time” (reproduction rate), if we kill/remove 10% of our bacteria this will be replaced in a matter of just a couple hours…

 

[12 Volt Man]

In healthy conditions (primarily sufficient oxygen, food/ammonia & surface area) a bacterial cell spends it’s life growing… then splits in half into two smaller cells… then each cell grows… then each cell splits in half each forming two smaller cells… then those cells grow…

Therefore in healthy conditions, cells do not “die”… only when they lack the basic necessities do they die off…

correct. but the bacterial population cannot grow indefinately. as the population rises, food becomes limited (as you mentioned)) and byprodcuts of metabolism limit cell doubling. these byproucts vary by bacterial species, but they can be things like acids (lactic acid), carbon dioxide (via respiration) etc.

in other words, say you were to give the bacteria unlimited food and unlimited oxgyen. these byproducts of metabolism would still limit growth.