I'm getting this girl in next week labled as a mantilla but I believe true mantilla come out of Brazil? I'm not sure from anywhere else. But it is wild caught, and looks to me to be a hybrid?
How rare is P. Constellata???
- Thread starter Bogwoodbruce
- Start date
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P. Constellata had been described as a species, but currently would be considered out-dated information. The defining characteristic of P. Constellata were noted in the AquaLog and it also noted that this may not be a distinct species, but just a genetic characteristic of ANY ray that produces denticles around the disc margin.
However, in some areas of Argentina their is a specific group of rays that have more naturally occuring denticles at all times, and these rays are often referred to as Constellata.. I do not think it is a disease or a genetic misfit. It likely has to do with water quality in the area that they are most abundant. ie: higher amounts of calcium carbonate in the water produce more denticles -> See Pearlscale Goldfish
as for the Mantilla Ray (which ECZS has no clue and that is a cheap peru ray he paid maybe $10 for it, don't get ripped off).. The 'Mantilla' ray we know out of Brazil has been proven to be collected from one specific location. Jose Mantilla worked with Richard Ross in the early 90s and imported a large number of these rays, and that is how they got the name 'Mantilla' .. It was an undescribed species with a 'sporadic' pattern..
If you look at stingray hybdization in Asia, you will be amazed to find HUNDREDS of rays that produce this 'Mantilla' pattern. It has alot to do with mashing genetics togethor, which obviously could occur in the wild as well. It could also more likely occur in an area where to tributaries containing an abundance of each specific species come togethor.
'Mantilla' rays are being produced in Asia by crossing rays such as Motoro into Henlei, then back into Leopoldi.. They have found that when a female produces offspring, 90% of the rays take on the physical pattern of either the mother or father.. However, 1 or 2 rays from each batch, sometimes 0, will have a 'sporadic' randomized pattern ~ They call this an 'SP' ray - because it is 'special.'.. These sporadic randomized ray that are only birthed %10-%15 are most often IDENTICAL to what we know as 'Mantilla' out of the wild from Brazil. Of all the wild 'Mantilla' rays I have found pictures of, no 2 had the same pattern, just like SP rays. If Mantilla rays were more abundant, had distinct characteristics to identify them, and had some sort of consistency in their collection data/physical traits, I would possibly consider them a species.
After looking at thousands of pictures of Mantilla, asking every source I could including Dr. Ross and others.. the conclusion I came up with is that Mantilla is a naturally occuring hybrid ray. It is less common in the wild because of the small ratio that are birthed. It is likely the 2 rays that cross togethor to create the Mantilla ray are locally abundant in the areas that the wild-caught Mantillas are captured. Mantilla rays can also be produced, just not a guaranteed production.
However, in some areas of Argentina their is a specific group of rays that have more naturally occuring denticles at all times, and these rays are often referred to as Constellata.. I do not think it is a disease or a genetic misfit. It likely has to do with water quality in the area that they are most abundant. ie: higher amounts of calcium carbonate in the water produce more denticles -> See Pearlscale Goldfish
as for the Mantilla Ray (which ECZS has no clue and that is a cheap peru ray he paid maybe $10 for it, don't get ripped off).. The 'Mantilla' ray we know out of Brazil has been proven to be collected from one specific location. Jose Mantilla worked with Richard Ross in the early 90s and imported a large number of these rays, and that is how they got the name 'Mantilla' .. It was an undescribed species with a 'sporadic' pattern..
If you look at stingray hybdization in Asia, you will be amazed to find HUNDREDS of rays that produce this 'Mantilla' pattern. It has alot to do with mashing genetics togethor, which obviously could occur in the wild as well. It could also more likely occur in an area where to tributaries containing an abundance of each specific species come togethor.
'Mantilla' rays are being produced in Asia by crossing rays such as Motoro into Henlei, then back into Leopoldi.. They have found that when a female produces offspring, 90% of the rays take on the physical pattern of either the mother or father.. However, 1 or 2 rays from each batch, sometimes 0, will have a 'sporadic' randomized pattern ~ They call this an 'SP' ray - because it is 'special.'.. These sporadic randomized ray that are only birthed %10-%15 are most often IDENTICAL to what we know as 'Mantilla' out of the wild from Brazil. Of all the wild 'Mantilla' rays I have found pictures of, no 2 had the same pattern, just like SP rays. If Mantilla rays were more abundant, had distinct characteristics to identify them, and had some sort of consistency in their collection data/physical traits, I would possibly consider them a species.
After looking at thousands of pictures of Mantilla, asking every source I could including Dr. Ross and others.. the conclusion I came up with is that Mantilla is a naturally occuring hybrid ray. It is less common in the wild because of the small ratio that are birthed. It is likely the 2 rays that cross togethor to create the Mantilla ray are locally abundant in the areas that the wild-caught Mantillas are captured. Mantilla rays can also be produced, just not a guaranteed production.
Kevaldo;2010416; said:thats a tax man line, you have to prove where the money came from! not us
yes would be a good topic for the symposium....
