Human population numbers questioned

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The issue, at its most basic, is that we're turning "useless" animals into "useful" ones, which is a bummer for anyone who likes the former.

Before the industrial revolution, a forest might have trees, shrubs, bushes, snails, worms, insects, fish, birds, mice, squirrels, rabbits, foxes, wildcats, boar and deer. When the forest's been cut down and made into a field, it will have corn, livestock, and people. If you liked a particular species of bird or bug that lived in that forest, too bad - the resources that supported them are now used to support human lives, and certainly their right to live is greater than some bird in the middle of nowhere.

But if you continue this long enough, even in the best of circumstances (i.e. global warming can be managed with minimal impact to our lives), you will have an entire planet of "useful" species, i.e. us and the plants and animals that are needed for feeding us. Everything else, the less essential species that don't generate enough value, will be repurposed (to put it gently).

Of course most people would like for this to stop somewhere, i.e. some portions of nature should be protected and set aside for our enjoyment, instead of being destroyed to make way for more people. For those who clamor about human overpopulation, this line has already been crossed - we already have too many people and too little nature. Your line might be somewhere else (15 billion? 20?), and that is totally fine as well.

But for politicians who must secure votes, and corporations that must generate value for their shareholders, the "useful planet" is the ideal outcome. The environment is not a strongly political topic, nor does it generate significant economic value. As such, it's in their interest to maximize human populations, which by necessity happens at the expense of wildlife. Look at how both politicians and corporations were alarmed by the recent population crisis experienced in many countries, for example.

As a consequence, I am on the side of the environmentalists here - or rather, they're on my side. I want a planet that has at least some wildlife in it, states and corporations want the useful planet, so I'm happy with those who push back against the latter, even if they're loud and annoying at times.
 
The issue, at its most basic, is that we're turning "useless" animals into "useful" ones, which is a bummer for anyone who likes the former.

Before the industrial revolution, a forest might have trees, shrubs, bushes, snails, worms, insects, fish, birds, mice, squirrels, rabbits, foxes, wildcats, boar and deer. When the forest's been cut down and made into a field, it will have corn, livestock, and people. If you liked a particular species of bird or bug that lived in that forest, too bad - the resources that supported them are now used to support human lives, and certainly their right to live is greater than some bird in the middle of nowhere.

But if you continue this long enough, even in the best of circumstances (i.e. global warming can be managed with minimal impact to our lives), you will have an entire planet of "useful" species, i.e. us and the plants and animals that are needed for feeding us. Everything else, the less essential species that don't generate enough value, will be repurposed (to put it gently).

Of course most people would like for this to stop somewhere, i.e. some portions of nature should be protected and set aside for our enjoyment, instead of being destroyed to make way for more people. For those who clamor about human overpopulation, this line has already been crossed - we already have too many people and too little nature. Your line might be somewhere else (15 billion? 20?), and that is totally fine as well.

But for politicians who must secure votes, and corporations that must generate value for their shareholders, the "useful planet" is the ideal outcome. The environment is not a strongly political topic, nor does it generate significant economic value. As such, it's in their interest to maximize human populations, which by necessity happens at the expense of wildlife. Look at how both politicians and corporations were alarmed by the recent population crisis experienced in many countries, for example.

As a consequence, I am on the side of the environmentalists here - or rather, they're on my side. I want a planet that has at least some wildlife in it, states and corporations want the useful planet, so I'm happy with those who push back against the latter, even if they're loud and annoying at times.
I couldn't agree more. I don't refer to myself as an environmentalist; in many circles that term has been perverted to describe lunatic fringe types who feel that I shouldn't draw breath or eat a steak because I'm destroying the planet. I prefer the term conservationist; I absolutely want to see nature protected, but don't believe that goal is inconsistent with human utilization of it in a controlled manner.

In fact, in my previous post I used the term "environmental extremists" in an attempt to clarify this critical difference, i.e. between good-hearted, right-minded people and virtue-signalling a-holes.

Although I was born in Canada, my background is 100% pure Eastern European, and a large percentage of the older folk in that community saw all of nature as a resource to be exploited without restraint. My father thankfully swam upstream in that regard (and many others...), but my mother was a poster child for the crush/kill/destroy mentality. I began watching and feeding birds when I was very young, and I was very taken aback every time my mother would glance at a Goldfinch or Cardinal at the feeders, and then smirk "Yes, pretty...but what good are they?" As far as she was concerned, the only plants and animals that deserved any consideration were those that furthered the cause of her people's goal, which as far as I could tell back then consisted of covering the entire world with wheat and carefully-mowed grass.

So your comment about useless and useful animals and plants, C Conchonius , was a definite ride on the Way-back Machine. :)
 
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Hello; Back when still active in biology I failed to delve into the question, so I am guessing based on a possibly flawed understanding rather that data. So, I offer a SWAG (Scientific Wild A -- Guess). Supposedly some better that a mere WAG. Cellulose is a part of grasses and is very hard to digest. Some grazers try to avoid this stuff by being selective in the parts or types of plants they eat. Hint -one sort of such animal's name starts with the letter H.

Hello; for some reason the rest of my post will not show up.
 
There became so much grass which held so very much energy and food value that some animals unlocked a key to getting the food & energy value from grasses. They did a symbiotic relationship with bacteria which could break down cellulose. Even with the help of bacteria, it is still not a very efficient process. Cow manure (cow patties) can be dried out and retains enough energy to burn the same as firewood. There is a cow patty in my back yard from when a few weeks ago a cow got out of the next-door pasture. I do not plan to burn it. Being cold weather it was left after mowing season so will slowly decay in place. Likely will have some extra grass growth at the spot. But that particular patty will not give off methane. The why is because it is in oxygen of the air.

Hello; seems I can only post short paragraphs???????
 
So, cows make methane because part of their four chambered gut is anaerobic. The anaerobic bacteria which dominated life on earth before chlorophyll came along still can exist in places without oxygen (connect this tid-bit with over an inch of fine sand in an aquarium and get back to me) The bacteria in the deep gut work on the grasses providing nutrition for themselves with plenty enough left over for the cow. A byproduct of the bacteria's work is methane.
 
So, my unsupported SWAG is many if not most grazers make methane for similar reasons. The ones which have to be slim so they can run may try to feed on easier to digest plant parts to avoid the bulk of cattle, bison, wildebeest and so on. But lets us move on the overall champion of methane.
 
Termites make more methane than any other life form as far as i know. They use the same sort of gut bacteria relationship as cattle. Likely came up with it first is my guess. I have read the biomass of termites exceeds that of all other grazers. Sounds right. On to the bit of how a radical environmentalist might dispute the termite claim. Had that very thing happen on a different forum. His claim being the ground soil soaked up the methane, so I had to be wrong. I had to wake up some brain cells and revert to the internet. Turned out the ground does indeed "soak" up some methane but only a modest fraction of what the termites make.
 
On to why cows are a target nowadays and wildlife are ignored. A simple WAG this time. Two reasons come to mind. One is they perceive the chance to control cows by rules cattle ranchers have to follow. In one European country drastic anti cow policies are being enacted and used. Hope such does not turn out as poorly as the green energy fiasco has so far.
 
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