hybrid cichlids

[RD.]

Yes, hybrids are a real problem in this hobby for reasons stated, but when one considers the number of exports out of Asia, and the BIG farms in Florida, resistance to that part of the hobby is futile. So best to rely on education, vs debates on what is ethical or not.

 

[dogofwar]

Like a moth to flame

Reality is that fancy and hybrid fish - including cichlids - have been part of fishkeeping for as long as there has been fishkeeping. There is a demand for super-natural fish and an interest both among some hobbyists and commercial entities in producing them. It's virtually impossible to know whether a fancy whatever fish is technically a hybrid or solely the result of line breeding an anomalous fish. And, of course, fish can become hybrids and not hybrids (and back again) solely through taxonomic changes. At the end of the day, hobbyists either seek to maintain the wild form or they don't.

Not my jam but that doesn't mean that everyone must like what I like!

There are two main considerations, though: 1) How to ensure that fish are properly labeled? and 2) How to ensure that there are "pure" stocks for the (relatively small) segment of people who keep fish who want them?

In a nutshell, I only trust a very limited pool of sources of fish to be "pure"; the rest? Unless they have pretty solid provenance back to someone I trust... I don't trust them.

Do I keep fish without known provenance? Sure. Do I breed and sell them as something that they're not? Nope.

 

[Hybridfish7]

Thankfully with the new revelation that amatitlania siquia nigrofasciata and honduran red points are the same species, mixed aquarium strains are now along the same lines as goldfish breeds, so now I don't have to worry about the confusion as to whether one has genes of another species in it. Still not as good as pure lines but good enough

 

[Aquatic Aggression]

Because in any hybrid spawn, a certain percentage (perhaps 40%) will look like the mother, another 40% like the father, and the other 20 % could look like something else

Not a very accurate statement.

 

[dogofwar]

That misses the point: An HRP (Amatitlania sp. from near Danli, Honduras), A. siquia from Rio Tempisque in Costa Rica and other "convicts" might be the same "species" (as are, for example, the V. melanura from two different locations)... but that doesn't make it any more important to maintain "pure" lines of each. Maybe more so. They'll all, of course, interbreed. And look like "convicts" but the unique nature of each type is lost when you mix them.

That's why trying to establish moral differentiation between line-bred fish and hybrids, in my mind at least, is pointless (i.e. line bred = good; hybrid = bad). Both are seeking to create a fish that's different than as authentic-as-possible to wild type. And if you're one of the small segment of the hobby who care about this, then neither are OK.

Thankfully with the new revelation that amatitlania siquia nigrofasciata and honduran red points are the same species, mixed aquarium strains are now along the same lines as goldfish breeds, so now I don't have to worry about the confusion as to whether one has genes of another species in it. Still not as good as pure lines but good enough

 

[dogofwar]

And to quote myself on this most-esoteric of topics, I find it just fine that the vast, vast majority of hobbyists and people who keep fish absolutely do not care if their "convicts" come from pure lines (i.e. with provenance). They just want pretty, healthy fish.

That misses the point: An HRP (Amatitlania sp. from near Danli, Honduras), A. siquia from Rio Tempisque in Costa Rica and other "convicts" might be the same "species" (as are, for example, the V. melanura from two different locations)... but that doesn't make it any more important to maintain "pure" lines of each. Maybe more so. They'll all, of course, interbreed. And look like "convicts" but the unique nature of each type is lost when you mix them.

That's why trying to establish moral differentiation between line-bred fish and hybrids, in my mind at least, is pointless (i.e. line bred = good; hybrid = bad). Both are seeking to create a fish that's different than as authentic-as-possible to wild type. And if you're one of the small segment of the hobby who care about this, then neither are OK.

 

[RD.]

That misses the point: An HRP (Amatitlania sp. from near Danli, Honduras), A. siquia from Rio Tempisque in Costa Rica and other "convicts" might be the same "species" (as are, for example, the V. melanura from two different locations)... but that doesn't make it any more important to maintain "pure" lines of each. Maybe more so. They'll all, of course, interbreed. And look like "convicts" but the unique nature of each type is lost when you mix them.

That's why trying to establish moral differentiation between line-bred fish and hybrids, in my mind at least, is pointless (i.e. line bred = good; hybrid = bad). Both are seeking to create a fish that's different than as authentic-as-possible to wild type. And if you're one of the small segment of the hobby who care about this, then neither are OK.

Agreed. Unfortunately mixing geographical locations has also become common place in the hobby. Anyone recall the Umbee discussions that took place here in the past? Most of those folks didn't get it either. In the African cichlid hobby, same. Several geographical variations in various species spread out from one end of a Rift Lake to the other, but all lumped together, such as S. fryeri. This never made sense to me, and still doesn't.

 

[RD.]

...... ditto to the various labs & cits found in the crater lakes. Different folks seem to have different ideas as to what is genetically acceptable when breeding "pure" specimens.

Thanks, I think I have read that paper, but honestly it's all a blur at this point. lol But yes, they offer up some of the same questions as others over the past decade.

With fish, hybrids between different species within the same genus are sometimes referred to as interspecific hybrids or crosses. Hybrids between different sub-species within a species, are known as intraspecific hybrids.

Having said that, a lot of this boils down to if one is a splitter, or lumper. Personally I have never felt comfortable in crossing fish from different geographical locations, and was taken a bit back when I first read Willem's comment in that link above that I posted. IMO the fry from such a breeding would be pure, domestic/aquarium strain A. labiatus.

I can only think of a few different reasons for crossing geographical variants of the same species. One being that is all one has to work with, so it is done out of desperation to breed two fish of the same species. I would assume that was Willem's case. Another is in the belief that the breeder would be creating something "new & exciting", as in some of the umbee breedings that took place here by members years ago. My warnings in those past discussions fell on deaf ears, and many took my comments as an insult. The final reason I can think of is just pure ignorance, and not caring about the long term outcome of the species.

Otherwise, it simply makes no sense to me.

Willem's states:

"2. Is it acceptable to keep and breed cichlids from two different localities? Even if they are the same species? I cannot think of any objections. Of course, you should mention the localities the parents came from. But that information is useless once you get to the second generation. That is when you have created an aquarium strain. Is there anything wrong with that?"

I personally find his comment above, shocking, considering his background, and "expertise" in cichlids from this part of the world. There's plenty wrong with what he describes, maybe he should read some of the papers/studies posted in this topic. Whoa ......

 

[Aquatic Aggression]

That's why trying to establish moral differentiation between line-bred fish and hybrids, in my mind at least, is pointless (i.e. line bred = good; hybrid = bad). Both are seeking to create a fish that's different than as authentic-as-possible to wild type. And if you're one of the small segment of the hobby who care about this, then neither are OK.

 

[Aquatic Aggression]

Just as all goldfish, whether Black Moore or your regular Pet Smart goldie are Carassius auratus, they are line bred, not hybrids

There are a few studies indicating fancy goldfish came about due to hybridization of different species of carp and then line breeding. This shows a simple cross throwing fry with the egg shaped body and double tails: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2020.595959/full
A drastic change of physiology is easier to achieve through hybridization so it makes sense.