Although the climate may be very similar, there is still the question of the water itself. Theres not much chance that the water chemistry in Australia will be the same as the water chemistry in Malay or singapore. Even if they were to be similar, there is still the proven fact that breeding pairs within the same specie takes many years to form. Farms have also tried having hybrids, but in the end all attempts with two different species has failed. Like King-eL said, even silvers and blacks have not crossed and they are from the same region, thus making asians and jars or asians and leis seems even more impossible.
hybrid issue-roadblock for legalizing arowana
- Thread starter ausarow
- Start date
breeding asians over asians is already difficult, let alone breeding asians over aussies? your country probably trying to avoid the asian arowanas creating havoc in your local eco-systems that is one reason why your country banned them. many people know how Australia are strict when it comes to their native plants and animals, especially to non native species. your wildlife agents are probably anticipating all the positive and negative things that could affect the native species of your country.
atleast point them out the benefits of asian arowanas if they are accidentally escape to your local waterways or rivers and if they happen to breed.
atleast point them out the benefits of asian arowanas if they are accidentally escape to your local waterways or rivers and if they happen to breed.
pressure cooker, even if they can breed here we still would need to allow legal import to get CITES license of future breedings because we would need to breed from F2s onwards. we would likley not be able to breed them in the states where climate is matched either. that will be one of the controls they should be putting in if it gets that far.
once allowed on import list it is possible to breed here or get license to breed here, fisheries and CITES dependant of course..but
breeding here would only likely permissable to be done indoors or in outdoor ponds away from the climate match and then cared for indoors in the winters.
of course as any country, there is a black market.
our country does not allow breeding of fish unless they allow the fish here on the legal import list or it is native. the only exceptions are that if you had a specimen here before they made the species list allowable different. ie if they make one outlawed you could still keep it if you had proof it came in years before. the onus is on the owner though ..and i dont think they were ever on any lists allowed in the past. but maybe one day we had an open policy in the early days for example.
you could then breed and trade progeny and their progeny..now thats fine in that i could potentially breed a pair then use its offspring and just continue to breed them, however one can not do this practise for money incentive, only trade or barter i believe. no commercial stuff.
and on top of that, it is against cites law for us to trade in non microchipped and certified fish anyways. so it is not really a loophole to allow open legitimate trade of species that were once on the live import list. it is a law to stop people being penalised for owning or having those fish breed.
also they will likely be trying to do away with this law now they are working on a whole new set of principles.
as for water quality that would not weigh well into the debate im afraid. it is a good point but not one which can be used to success.ie its not in the guidelines or scope of the questions.
if its a match in climate then we cant claim they wont breed due to water quality when the common ancestor began in those very waters. we just get x amount of negative points for the climate question..an interesting thing here though is there is a question regarding if the family (other species) has been known to breed elsewhere, other countries, which it has, BUT we can prove that the species specifically has been released in areas outside the natural range and not taken hold, now that should negate the heavy loss of points that we got from say knife fish being able to be bred other than its natural country. but i think we still cop bad points.
also we cop 3 bad points just for the species being protected on CITES but i think that is absolutely ridiculous seeing as any fish that is protected from being endangered only proves its survival skills and reproduction ability is rather poor so should lower our risk to the environment..
we could say that no one has bred them outside of the natural range to prove common people wouldnt be able to do it, so being rare and valuable means they are unlikley to be let go.. so we would not acrue points on the release events questions.. but that isnt to say it is zero risk here as they may get out and breed. it really is a tricky process.
as far as i know, there has never been any papers/proof that it is water quality that stops the arowans breeding in some areas while allowing it in others.
i have heard of earth magnetism maybe being a factor but thats likley a wives tale/guess. just because to most, they do not know what it is that stops them breeding.
we have the same pH the same quality..high rainfall areas. slow running creeks that keep jars and leis so i cannot really argue that.
i also hear you on the point that it takes years for fish to mature and begin to pair off. that is something that is looked at when considering how many fish would be produced in such and such a time. the population doubling time is on fishbase..so that is covered.
ALL VERY GOOD POINTS THOUGH! i guess ill be waiting for a farmer to step up and say he tried a cross and it never worked. if i cant get this passed in the next year or so then i have to apply under another process later.
once allowed on import list it is possible to breed here or get license to breed here, fisheries and CITES dependant of course..but
breeding here would only likely permissable to be done indoors or in outdoor ponds away from the climate match and then cared for indoors in the winters.
of course as any country, there is a black market.
our country does not allow breeding of fish unless they allow the fish here on the legal import list or it is native. the only exceptions are that if you had a specimen here before they made the species list allowable different. ie if they make one outlawed you could still keep it if you had proof it came in years before. the onus is on the owner though ..and i dont think they were ever on any lists allowed in the past. but maybe one day we had an open policy in the early days for example.
you could then breed and trade progeny and their progeny..now thats fine in that i could potentially breed a pair then use its offspring and just continue to breed them, however one can not do this practise for money incentive, only trade or barter i believe. no commercial stuff.
and on top of that, it is against cites law for us to trade in non microchipped and certified fish anyways. so it is not really a loophole to allow open legitimate trade of species that were once on the live import list. it is a law to stop people being penalised for owning or having those fish breed.
also they will likely be trying to do away with this law now they are working on a whole new set of principles.
as for water quality that would not weigh well into the debate im afraid. it is a good point but not one which can be used to success.ie its not in the guidelines or scope of the questions.
if its a match in climate then we cant claim they wont breed due to water quality when the common ancestor began in those very waters. we just get x amount of negative points for the climate question..an interesting thing here though is there is a question regarding if the family (other species) has been known to breed elsewhere, other countries, which it has, BUT we can prove that the species specifically has been released in areas outside the natural range and not taken hold, now that should negate the heavy loss of points that we got from say knife fish being able to be bred other than its natural country. but i think we still cop bad points.
also we cop 3 bad points just for the species being protected on CITES but i think that is absolutely ridiculous seeing as any fish that is protected from being endangered only proves its survival skills and reproduction ability is rather poor so should lower our risk to the environment..
we could say that no one has bred them outside of the natural range to prove common people wouldnt be able to do it, so being rare and valuable means they are unlikley to be let go.. so we would not acrue points on the release events questions.. but that isnt to say it is zero risk here as they may get out and breed. it really is a tricky process.
as far as i know, there has never been any papers/proof that it is water quality that stops the arowans breeding in some areas while allowing it in others.
i have heard of earth magnetism maybe being a factor but thats likley a wives tale/guess. just because to most, they do not know what it is that stops them breeding.
we have the same pH the same quality..high rainfall areas. slow running creeks that keep jars and leis so i cannot really argue that.
i also hear you on the point that it takes years for fish to mature and begin to pair off. that is something that is looked at when considering how many fish would be produced in such and such a time. the population doubling time is on fishbase..so that is covered.
ALL VERY GOOD POINTS THOUGH! i guess ill be waiting for a farmer to step up and say he tried a cross and it never worked. if i cant get this passed in the next year or so then i have to apply under another process later.
pressure cooker, your last question is exactly right. they are also concerned about it being large and a predator and the possibility of competing with our native fish of many types.
only i hope to reduce the concerns by addressing other things.
i dont think that being large and a predator is enough negative points to stop them being allowed on its own.
i will soon be getting the program they use to analyse and work out the risk points system and then work out if i can reduce some of the points with science.
they acknowledge that the points system is not perfect at adressing all species as they have only developed it using so many species and their establishment in the past.
only i hope to reduce the concerns by addressing other things.
i dont think that being large and a predator is enough negative points to stop them being allowed on its own.
i will soon be getting the program they use to analyse and work out the risk points system and then work out if i can reduce some of the points with science.
they acknowledge that the points system is not perfect at adressing all species as they have only developed it using so many species and their establishment in the past.
If the possibility that someone did release them in the wild. The chance of reproducing is very slim as there are probably a few of them that will be release and they won't even pair up. They could be both all males or all females or not able to meet each other. Also a large predator would probably spot them and get eaten.
Even farmer will trow in a minimum of 6 aros and hope for them to pair up. If you compare farm pond and big lakes or river the pond would be way to small and they are able to meet up easily compare to lake or river. It's also hard to tell the gender of aros and will also take time to mature. If someone knows that they spotted an asian aro in the non-native water then they will be taken out and sold or if the autorities will catch it and they will deal with it.
Farmers have tried to cross asian and south american aros. They failed. They tried asian and autrlain aros they also failed. The only aros that can cross are asian aros color varaint to other asian aros color varaint.
Even farmer will trow in a minimum of 6 aros and hope for them to pair up. If you compare farm pond and big lakes or river the pond would be way to small and they are able to meet up easily compare to lake or river. It's also hard to tell the gender of aros and will also take time to mature. If someone knows that they spotted an asian aro in the non-native water then they will be taken out and sold or if the autorities will catch it and they will deal with it.
Farmers have tried to cross asian and south american aros. They failed. They tried asian and autrlain aros they also failed. The only aros that can cross are asian aros color varaint to other asian aros color varaint.
