Hypothetical Question

[koop171]

I don't think I would call unlessthere was something really bad going on. Like the tank is 1/4 low and totally green with algea and visible fish poo all over the tank. Or mold growing in the water (it can happen if water sits long enough)

 

[cchhcc]

Have you ever spent much time around a horse or cow? Since are prey animals so you have to approach them in a different manner than a dog or cat but they are very empathetic and interesting animals. A mammal is more evolved than a teleost.

I'm not saying that it isn't sad and wrong but with fish it isn't going to be as applicable to the laws governing other pet animals. I don't see how one could justify pressing charges against someone w/ an over stocked tank when every petstore has a zillion fish to a gallon in the feeder holding tank. It does not make sense....

Spent quite a bit of time around horses, etc. while in my former life I was studying vet medicine and working for an equine and large animal specialist. Your point is interesting, though, as it applies to my belief that just like with mammals there are very different levels of awareness among fish. It is easy to see the difference behaviorally and (for lack of a better word) intellectually between prey fish and predatory fish.

Plus, to say a mammal is more evolved that a teleost is quite incorrect, but not in the way you meant it. Every animal for the most part is equally evolved to fit its particular niche. Certainly some have more highly developed senses and various characteristics.

Perhaps a better comparison would be fish and birds. There are scores of so-called "brainless" bird species, but there are also some quite intellectually superior (on a relative basis) raptors, psittacines, etc.

You mentioned congress and hearings if dogs were housed in unsuitable conditions and sold to anyone with a buck in his pocket. What about Puppy Mills? Puppy Mills don't care who they sell a puppy to. We all have heard the horror stories of how puppies at Puppy Mills are mistreated. They're out to make a fast buck. As a matter of fact, the local humane societies and shelters, take more time and do superfically delve into the backgrounds of the people who adopt their animals. It's not as intense as the background check for child adoption, but they do try to ensure that the dogs and cats are placed in a decent environment. Also, I'm sure there are horse lovers and owners who would argue that horses do have "Personality." I'm not sure that any animal has a true PERSONALITY, because the root word in PERSONALITY is PERSON. Animals are not people. The primary purpose of cattle is to produce beef and milk. Cows are not pets, they actually are food animals. But, they do recognize their owners and respond to those owners. Fish are cold-blooded creatures and are not as "PERSONABLE " as domesticated FOOD mammals. I enjoy my fish, but they're just fish. You can't compare them to dogs, cats or cattle. Society attempts to protect cattle and dogs and cats. Society assumes that the average fish will die in a few months. Most of my friends are surprised that I can keep fish alive for a long period of time. Society has been conditioned to believe that fish are expendable.

I don't disagree with your puppy mills references. My point is, we should expect fish vendors to be as responsible as we expect puppy mill operators to be.

Also, many of the fish we keep (or I keep) clearly "recognize and respond" to their owners, to steal a phrase from your cow comment. Granted, this is a difficult issue. But keep in mind, some authorities insist that PIGS are the most intelligent domesticated animal, and they are treated in a manner that were a dog owner to replicate it he'd find himself in jail!

The society argument is a dangerous one. Society has conditioned us for thousands of years to do and accept all kinds of horrible things.

Now I'm no fanatic. I enjoy some types of hunting, and I definitely eat blood red meat (hahahah!). I certainly aren't championing turning in your neighbor for a little green water. Still, I am disturbed by some of the callous things I've seen on this site.

 

[Otolith]

Spent quite a bit of time around horses, etc. while in my former life I was studying vet medicine and working for an equine and large animal specialist. Your point is interesting, though, as it applies to my belief that just like with mammals there are very different levels of awareness among fish. It is easy to see the difference behaviorally and (for lack of a better word) intellectually between prey fish and predatory fish.

Plus, to say a mammal is more evolved that a teleost is quite incorrect, but not in the way you meant it. Every animal for the most part is equally evolved to fit its particular niche. Certainly some have more highly developed senses and various characteristics.

Perhaps a better comparison would be fish and birds. There are scores of so-called "brainless" bird species, but there are also some quite intellectually superior (on a relative basis) raptors, psittacines, etc.

I'm aware evolution isn't a linear progression rather individual species adapting to their particular circumstances. Just got sucked into the common language usage rather than scientific. Perhaps a better terminology would be neurologically capable?

In your previous statement I got the impression that you felt horses and cows were some how less cognitively aware and capable of fear/suffering than fish and was addressing that but seems I misunderstood.

So we should concern ourselves with respecting the more "intelligent" ones from cruel treatment but schooling/prey animals have less significance due to lower facilities? At what line does one distinguish one species from another? Seems a rather subjective and grey area to formulate personal opinions on (much less legislate).

 

[cchhcc]

Yes, certainly a grey area. That's why it is safer be err on the fish's side.

I don't think many people are being intentionally cruel. I'd bet that 99% of fishkeepers intend to do right by their pets. It's just the combination of innocent ignorance and the power of "want" that results in problems.

 

[Delhezi222]

I'll be brutally honest, I wouldn't report anything fish-related. Might sound cold, but they're fish. The one thing I think other animals such as cats and dogs have over fish is that they're able to communicate emotion much easier. Some people might find it cruel, but I couldn't care less how people treat their fish. I'd let them go about their business, and make sure my own fish were treated well.

 

[joe the fish man]

If I turned them in, I'd have to go with them as I just picked up a 4" Arapaima