IMO one of the best reads on this subject can be found in the link below, and while it's geared towards Discus, the info can be applied to most species of tropical fish.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/spironucleus.php
The most important portion of that article is the following;
In simple terms, in 'healthy discus' S. vortens is commonly found in the flagellated stage in the lumen of the upper intestine, where it remains, controlled by the immune system of the fish. In stressed discus, the immune system is placed under greater strain, and the organism, in theory, multiplies unchecked causing considerable localised damage. Once the damage is severe enough the intestinal lining is penetrated and the S. vortens enters the blood causing systemic and organ infections. In regards to stress, I have stated elsewhere (Stewart, 2001) that stressors can include: low oxygen levels, high nitrite levels, comparatively high (or low) water temperatures, rough handling, mechanical injury, overcrowding, water of inappropriate hardness etc (see Francis-Floyd, 1997; Rottmann, Francis-Floyd, Durborow, 1992 for more information on stress and its effects and management).
What that article clearly describes is what a major role STRESS plays in triggering outbreaks of these pathogens. The more stressors that one can remove from their set ups, the less chance there will be of having sick fish, including bloat.
IMO almost all, if not all ailments in fish are triggered by stress, and one needs to learn early on what each set ups limitations are. If/when we attempt to go beyond those limitations, we risk the health of everything within our system.
Some hobbyists seem to learn this straight away, others never seem to catch on.
Sometimes when these ailments surface it seems to appear that there is no reason at all.
IMHO the reason for this is due to the fact that all fish are individuals, and while they can have individual behaviours & temperaments, I also believe that each fish can only tolerate individual levels of stress, before they weaken enough to become susceptible to these stressors. You'll typically find that the same holds true for most organisms on our planet, including humans.
Just as one can have genetic runts, I also believe that one can end up with fish that have genetically weak immune systems, or at least weaker than normal. This would explain why one fish in a tank full of (any species), can end up with fungus, or pop eye, or HITH, or whatever, while other fish in the same tank have no health issues whatsoever. Or why some fish survive an ammonia spike, while others drop like flies. Or why only one female in a tank full of breeders ends up egg bound, while no other females ever exhibit this problem.
In the wild Mother Nature has a way of dealing with fish such as this, but what if some of these fish are collected, and exported? How many people cull WC fish? Most breeders will do almost anything to save a prized egg bound female, yet in the wild that fish would either pull through on its own, or else .....
Overuse of medication can also cause an immune system to become severely compromised. Many exporters & importers dose the fish with meds shortly after they are collected or received, with tranqs when the fish are shipped, while many hobbyists dose the fish yet again with meds when they arrive to their new home. (as a precautionary step)
Already the fish (as does the new owner of said fish) have the odds stacked against them, and all it takes is one single weak link to start a snowball effect in ones tank.
Perhaps in some cases, even when we do everything right, it ultimately all boils down to nothing more than a roll of the dice?
With regards to protein - the only way that protein can cause gastrointestinal issues in a fish, is if the source of the protein is poorly digestible, which in most cases is caused from using excessive grains & grain-byproducts in the formula. It has nothing to do with HIGH protein content, as the vast majority of excess protein in a diet will simply be excreted by the fish. Fish simply excrete excess protein, it doesn't build up in dangerous levels as excess fat can, so you're certainly not harming a herbivore IF you feed a slightly higher protein content than what that fish would typically eat in the wild, unless as previously stated that source of protein consists of
difficult to digest forms of protein, such as some of the grain by-products used in various formulas.
The only other negative in feeding a diet that is excessive in protein, is that it can cause less than ideal growth in some species, as the excess protein requires a large amount of energy to deaminate and excrete any excess absorbed amino acids. Neither of these situations will cause bloat in a fish.
The biggest problem is that most people don't truly understand what causes bloat, and believe that diet is always the trigger, when that couldn't be further from the truth.
While in unison the nodding heads on various online forums only perpetuate this myth.
IMO the vast majority of bloat cases with herbivorous cichlids has nothing to do with the diet, but with other stressful factors, such as aggression, lack of shelter, water quality, etc., which in turn can cause a 'normal' amount of intestinal pathogens to proliferate to harmful numbers. In some cases it may be nothing more than survival of the fittest, which is what takes place in Lake Malawi & Lake Tanganyika every day. A fish with a weak immune system will obviously be the first fish to succumb to illness if/when stress becomes a factor, no matter what you feed them.
FYI - Stuart Grant feeds a generic fish meal based bulk flake to every last herbivore that's collected in Malawi, as do all of the exporters on Lake Tanganyika. A friend of mine spent 5 months working on Lake Malawi for Stuart Grant, and was responsible for the daily feeding of all fish. None of these fish ever saw a veggie based food, and he never once saw or heard of a case of bloat in the 5 months that he was there.
An exporter on Lake Tanganyika that I know told me the same thing, never once a case of bloat (and he specializes in Tropheus sp., which are known for being bloat magnets) and he too feeds a fish meal based food.
And these are wild caught fish!
The difference between their tanks and yours ........... they have massive concrete vats, a large amount of fish, fresh water being pumped in & out 24/7, and no territory to fight over. Stress from aggression is almost non existent, ditto to stress from water quality, and there are usually so many fish that no one fish will ever become a target for more than a few seconds at a time.
My advice is this, forget about the protein % on a label, and pay close attention to the source of that protein.
Also use a food that is low in dietary fat (below 6% for adult fish) and feed sparingly. Many hobbyists tend to overfeed, which not only creates unhealthy fish, but also lowers the overall quality of the water.
To the OP in this thread - there are scores of high quality breeders of cichlids in your state, that produce high quality fish. Perhaps you simply need to find a new source for your fish? Unfortunately many of the cichlids found in LFS's will have been imported from Asia, where antibiotics, hormones, and poor breeding practices create less than ideal specimens. Shop around & you should be able to get some great deals, on some high quality locally bred fish.
HTH
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/spironucleus.php
The most important portion of that article is the following;
In simple terms, in 'healthy discus' S. vortens is commonly found in the flagellated stage in the lumen of the upper intestine, where it remains, controlled by the immune system of the fish. In stressed discus, the immune system is placed under greater strain, and the organism, in theory, multiplies unchecked causing considerable localised damage. Once the damage is severe enough the intestinal lining is penetrated and the S. vortens enters the blood causing systemic and organ infections. In regards to stress, I have stated elsewhere (Stewart, 2001) that stressors can include: low oxygen levels, high nitrite levels, comparatively high (or low) water temperatures, rough handling, mechanical injury, overcrowding, water of inappropriate hardness etc (see Francis-Floyd, 1997; Rottmann, Francis-Floyd, Durborow, 1992 for more information on stress and its effects and management).
What that article clearly describes is what a major role STRESS plays in triggering outbreaks of these pathogens. The more stressors that one can remove from their set ups, the less chance there will be of having sick fish, including bloat.
IMO almost all, if not all ailments in fish are triggered by stress, and one needs to learn early on what each set ups limitations are. If/when we attempt to go beyond those limitations, we risk the health of everything within our system.
Some hobbyists seem to learn this straight away, others never seem to catch on.
Sometimes when these ailments surface it seems to appear that there is no reason at all.
IMHO the reason for this is due to the fact that all fish are individuals, and while they can have individual behaviours & temperaments, I also believe that each fish can only tolerate individual levels of stress, before they weaken enough to become susceptible to these stressors. You'll typically find that the same holds true for most organisms on our planet, including humans.
Just as one can have genetic runts, I also believe that one can end up with fish that have genetically weak immune systems, or at least weaker than normal. This would explain why one fish in a tank full of (any species), can end up with fungus, or pop eye, or HITH, or whatever, while other fish in the same tank have no health issues whatsoever. Or why some fish survive an ammonia spike, while others drop like flies. Or why only one female in a tank full of breeders ends up egg bound, while no other females ever exhibit this problem.
In the wild Mother Nature has a way of dealing with fish such as this, but what if some of these fish are collected, and exported? How many people cull WC fish? Most breeders will do almost anything to save a prized egg bound female, yet in the wild that fish would either pull through on its own, or else .....
Overuse of medication can also cause an immune system to become severely compromised. Many exporters & importers dose the fish with meds shortly after they are collected or received, with tranqs when the fish are shipped, while many hobbyists dose the fish yet again with meds when they arrive to their new home. (as a precautionary step)
Already the fish (as does the new owner of said fish) have the odds stacked against them, and all it takes is one single weak link to start a snowball effect in ones tank.
Perhaps in some cases, even when we do everything right, it ultimately all boils down to nothing more than a roll of the dice?
With regards to protein - the only way that protein can cause gastrointestinal issues in a fish, is if the source of the protein is poorly digestible, which in most cases is caused from using excessive grains & grain-byproducts in the formula. It has nothing to do with HIGH protein content, as the vast majority of excess protein in a diet will simply be excreted by the fish. Fish simply excrete excess protein, it doesn't build up in dangerous levels as excess fat can, so you're certainly not harming a herbivore IF you feed a slightly higher protein content than what that fish would typically eat in the wild, unless as previously stated that source of protein consists of
difficult to digest forms of protein, such as some of the grain by-products used in various formulas.
The only other negative in feeding a diet that is excessive in protein, is that it can cause less than ideal growth in some species, as the excess protein requires a large amount of energy to deaminate and excrete any excess absorbed amino acids. Neither of these situations will cause bloat in a fish.
The biggest problem is that most people don't truly understand what causes bloat, and believe that diet is always the trigger, when that couldn't be further from the truth.
While in unison the nodding heads on various online forums only perpetuate this myth.
IMO the vast majority of bloat cases with herbivorous cichlids has nothing to do with the diet, but with other stressful factors, such as aggression, lack of shelter, water quality, etc., which in turn can cause a 'normal' amount of intestinal pathogens to proliferate to harmful numbers. In some cases it may be nothing more than survival of the fittest, which is what takes place in Lake Malawi & Lake Tanganyika every day. A fish with a weak immune system will obviously be the first fish to succumb to illness if/when stress becomes a factor, no matter what you feed them.
FYI - Stuart Grant feeds a generic fish meal based bulk flake to every last herbivore that's collected in Malawi, as do all of the exporters on Lake Tanganyika. A friend of mine spent 5 months working on Lake Malawi for Stuart Grant, and was responsible for the daily feeding of all fish. None of these fish ever saw a veggie based food, and he never once saw or heard of a case of bloat in the 5 months that he was there.
An exporter on Lake Tanganyika that I know told me the same thing, never once a case of bloat (and he specializes in Tropheus sp., which are known for being bloat magnets) and he too feeds a fish meal based food.
And these are wild caught fish!
The difference between their tanks and yours ........... they have massive concrete vats, a large amount of fish, fresh water being pumped in & out 24/7, and no territory to fight over. Stress from aggression is almost non existent, ditto to stress from water quality, and there are usually so many fish that no one fish will ever become a target for more than a few seconds at a time.
My advice is this, forget about the protein % on a label, and pay close attention to the source of that protein.
Also use a food that is low in dietary fat (below 6% for adult fish) and feed sparingly. Many hobbyists tend to overfeed, which not only creates unhealthy fish, but also lowers the overall quality of the water.
To the OP in this thread - there are scores of high quality breeders of cichlids in your state, that produce high quality fish. Perhaps you simply need to find a new source for your fish? Unfortunately many of the cichlids found in LFS's will have been imported from Asia, where antibiotics, hormones, and poor breeding practices create less than ideal specimens. Shop around & you should be able to get some great deals, on some high quality locally bred fish.
HTH
....its the moderation that is able to suit both.