ID please

[sam buckle]

IME unless you were present when the ray was caught with a map and a GPS the catch location is always dubious.
There seems also to be more than one 'species' of Henlii, having different mouth and teeth structures, and there may be more.
Also, "in the Amazon all things are possible" regarding what fish are found where. They can swim and all the 'borders' are soft ( Vs absolute)
Last year I was invited by Brazilian Univ. prof and his grad students to go there to study Henlii in a Xingu tributary ( I couldn't make it ) so........who knows? not me!

This is the best and most accurate thing I have read on here in a long while (amusing considering the point being made). I have always looked at maps displaying the high and low water levels of the Amazon and realised how pointless or should I say non meaningful that locale was in relation to collection. Just looking at all the hybrids that are being produced now in comparison to the wild specimens photographed in the aqualog book, you would have to be blind not to see the fact that lots if them are wild hybrids. Yes pure specimens may only occur at the collection points but just as they may stray and interbreed with other species elsewhere, it only would take one intrepid male of another species to swim that bit further into the xingu (or other species specific locale) and mate with multiple females and in just two generations produce thousands of 'hybrid' rays. Until a massive accurate DNA based study is made, everything we all talk about us purely speculation.


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[aquaman45]

This is the best and most accurate thing I have read on here in a long while (amusing considering the point being made). I have always looked at maps displaying the high and low water levels of the Amazon and realised how pointless or should I say non meaningful that locale was in relation to collection. Just looking at all the hybrids that are being produced now in comparison to the wild specimens photographed in the aqualog book, you would have to be blind not to see the fact that lots if them are wild hybrids. Yes pure specimens may only occur at the collection points but just as they may stray and interbreed with other species elsewhere, it only would take one intrepid male of another species to swim that bit further into the xingu (or other species specific locale) and mate with multiple females and in just two generations produce thousands of 'hybrid' rays. Until a massive accurate DNA based study is made, everything we all talk about us purely speculation.


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Your quite right with your theories Sam but unless we see more of these rays coming out of the Xingu I feel its highly unlikely this is a Henlei hybrid, could be a new species who knows, if he says the ray was wild caught from the Xingu then who are we to disagree, the guy is from Brazil after all.

 

[andersp90]

Moterani says this ray is wild caught from the xingu so this rules out Henlei as that species is endemic to the Rio Tocantins.

Moterani, how confident are you that the person you got the ray from is telling the truth about the origin of this ray, definitely looks hybrid to me with a strong Motoro influence, could be P14 (RioTapajos) cross??

Cant be a P14 if its only 10 cm. No P14 is born looking like that anyway.

Also, the head looks too "rounded" to be a P14.

So yes, has to be a cross.

 

[moterani]

The dealer from whom I bought this stingray receives fishes from several rivers, the same week I bought the stingray he had received a shipment of the Xingu, he said that only came one of this kind and he was not sure about his species but she would have been collected in Xingu River. Thats all that I know, if anyone here has an identification key for these species it may be, I can see here and take out the doubt.

 

[DavidW]

the guy is from Brazil after all.

I am curious about where in Brazil
He will tell you that Northern Brazil ( Amazon, Para etc) and Southern Brazil are almost 2 different countries. The people are quite different, the regional accents are very different and the cultures are a little different too.
Most Brazilians that I meet have never been to the Amazon, similarly most Americans I meet have never been to the Rocky Mountains or Yellowstone Park.

Fishermen to wholesaler, wholesaler to dealer, dealer to store, lots of room for 'mistakes' there!
The wholesaler could have had a leftover Henlii, or the fishermen could have had some caught previously and hidden away ( to avoid going over quota and getting BIG fines), or they are just BS'ing ( a well known occurrence, they are not often forthcoming about their catch locations) there are many possible reasons....or...it could be a natural hybrid....or, or, or......
I am not saying it is, I am not saying it isn't any of these things, just that it could be, as nothing in the Amazon is absolute. It is almost impossible to be certain unless you were actually there.
Of course better sharp photos might help the ID, regardless of catch location.

 

[moterani]

Indeed, most Brazilians I know never actually went to amazon, I live in Sao Paulo, a city that closely resembles New York, working with research on snake venom and therefore travel a lot, I've been over 15 times in the Amazon, both in Brazil and in Bolivia. In the case of my stingray, I agree with you that there are endless possibilities, and as much as I trust the seller here in São Paulo, it is impossible to guarantee that the information he has is 100% correct by the number of people involved. I'll try to do better photos and post here as soon as possible, thank you for everyone's help so far.

 

[moterani]

and ... suppose this stingray came from some other river, an unknown river, based on that what can be said about it?

 

[DavidW]

and ... suppose this stingray came from some other river, an unknown river, based on that what can be said about it?

the tail is one of the more important superficial identifiers, markings and number of rows of spines, then it gets down to things like tooth and stomach structures, which obviously are problematic to study in a live ray!

 

[ajsmith235]

Wow. A lot of insight ful info on this threa f. Best one in a long time. Thanks contributors!

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[aquaman45]

Sounds like this could be a very interesting one to watch develop, could be a new species, by the looks of it this ray will be going through a few changes before its reaches full maturity.

Keep us updated.