ID Shark Housing

thebiggerthebetter

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Didnt say dwarfs, just say that some show poor Growth, like you just said :)
Minis = dwarfs I thought for our intents and purposes. Different words, same meaning, dwarfism being a better choice, no? :) But you are right. We appear to be talking about the same thing but since I, for one, haven't a clue why some stay small, I asked the community at large if anyone heard of dwarfism as a documented biological phenomenon in IDSs.

BigTrain, if you could post some Pictures, maybe you could get some more answers.
Absolutely.
 

thebiggerthebetter

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With cichlids at least large eyes in comparison to body means stunting. It happened with my kenyi when I first tried them (kenyi are about as elongated as an id shark scaled down of course). Their eyes were large and I thought it was normal until years laters when I got new kenyi and properly cared for them. I can't imagine this only happening with cichlids. Sorry, I have no scientific papers about this though.
Thanks, Aweshade. Don't get me wrong, please. Not digging under you. Only trying to learn... together. We are all in one boat :)

Let me understand this better. The first sentence is a wide statement about cichlids. Then one example. Does it mean you have a plethora of additional examples from your experience or the experience of others or from articles to support it? Sorry, I am not a cichlid guy, so I don't read much about them. Is this widely reported on cichlid forums?

If it is just one example (or even several examples), it would not support the breadth of the first statement and, furthermore, may have alternative explanations like diseases, mutations, other gene defects from inbreeding, line-breeding, etc.

############################################

Ben (from Germany) pointed out an article to me about an experiment with stunting carps by not changing their tank water and the ensuing accumulation of the growth-inhibiting hormones in the water which stunts their growth dramatically. There was no mention of body proportions change or larger eyes etc.

Nothing of this sort was mentioned in the articles I've read on fish stunted in large numbers in small ponds - bream (Abramis abramis) and European perch.
 

Karl K

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Thanks, Aweshade. Don't get me wrong, please. Not digging under you. Only trying to learn... together. We are all in one boat :)

Let me understand this better. The first sentence is a wide statement about cichlids. Then one example. Does it mean you have a plethora of additional examples from your experience or the experience of others or from articles to support it? Sorry, I am not a cichlid guy, so I don't read much about them. Is this widely reported on cichlid forums?

If it is just one example (or even several examples), it would not support the breadth of the first statement and, furthermore, may have alternative explanations like diseases, mutations, other gene defects from inbreeding, line-breeding, etc.

############################################

Ben (from Germany) pointed out an article to me about an experiment with stunting carps by not changing their tank water and the ensuing accumulation of the growth-inhibiting hormones in the water which stunts their growth dramatically. There was no mention of body proportions change or larger eyes etc.

Nothing of this sort was mentioned in the articles I've read on fish stunted in large numbers in small ponds - bream (Abramis abramis) and European perch.
I've heard the eyes get larger because they stop growing in lenght and girth, but there organs keep growing, and killing them when there organs get to big for the body.
 

BigTrain

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I'll post pictures as soon as I can. I'm spending a few days away from my home, though.

I regret to admit that my water changes have been infrequent. Because the tank has so few inhabitants, it does not often appear dirty. Because of this, I simply continue to add water when needed, and change the water filters and carbon every month. Now that you bring up hormones in the water, I'm reminded of what I read when I first bought these fish: that fewer water changes will stunt them... Sheesh, I feel so silly for not keeping that practice up! I'll correct that ASAP!

This collection of hormones may also explain why my pleco has seemed under for the past month. He has remained consistently pale: a light, washed out brown as opposed to his deep vibrant brown. If my ID sharks are under stress from poor growth, then perhaps he feels this same stress. (I had researched pH imbalances and plecos; after correcting the pH, I was never able to cause him to return to his deep color.)

The eyes on the ID sharks have not always been as large as they appear now. They are roughly 0.5" where they've normally hovered around 0.25" (respectively, I understand the larger the healthy fish, the large the healthy eye.) Only a few days before first posting, I sat down and studied them closely to look for any signs of illness that might relate to popeye. Months earlier, I put them through two rounds of both fungal and bacterial treatment with both associated Kordon products. When I noticed no change after the total of four treatments, I thought that maybe it was the natural change in the fish as they grew, and that I was just paranoid.
 

thebiggerthebetter

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I've heard the eyes get larger because they stop growing in lenght and girth, but there organs keep growing, and killing them when there organs get to big for the body.
Thanks, Karl. Again, I have not seen this info before, except this is sometimes said of the short-body fish.

Although it may be understandable for the short-bodied fishes (they have the same backbone length as the normal bodied kin but it is folded heavily) and rings true, I'd like to see some evidence of the harder kind, not hear-say... and not for the short-bodied fishes like RTCs and paroon sharks (I've no interest in learning about them) but for normal-bodied fishes.

Just because I have not seen it, does not mean it does not exist. I am looking to learn.

Citations or referrals to those who can explain this would be appreciated.
 

BigTrain

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thebiggerthebetter, thank you for mentioning a pool! I just checked out the prices and they are much more realistic for me, considering these guys need something quickly and temporarily until I find a real tank.
But, pools and rubber tubs are a whole new thing for me. I can get the general details elsewhere online, but do you have any special tips?
 

thebiggerthebetter

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I'll post pictures as soon as I can. I'm spending a few days away from my home, though.

I regret to admit that my water changes have been infrequent. Because the tank has so few inhabitants, it does not often appear dirty. Because of this, I simply continue to add water when needed, and change the water filters and carbon every month. Now that you bring up hormones in the water, I'm reminded of what I read when I first bought these fish: that fewer water changes will stunt them... Sheesh, I feel so silly for not keeping that practice up! I'll correct that ASAP!

This collection of hormones may also explain why my pleco has seemed under for the past month. He has remained consistently pale: a light, washed out brown as opposed to his deep vibrant brown. If my ID sharks are under stress from poor growth, then perhaps he feels this same stress. (I had researched pH imbalances and plecos; after correcting the pH, I was never able to cause him to return to his deep color.)

The eyes on the ID sharks have not always been as large as they appear now. They are roughly 0.5" where they've normally hovered around 0.25" (respectively, I understand the larger the healthy fish, the large the healthy eye.) Only a few days before first posting, I sat down and studied them closely to look for any signs of illness that might relate to popeye. Months earlier, I put them through two rounds of both fungal and bacterial treatment with both associated Kordon products. When I noticed no change after the total of four treatments, I thought that maybe it was the natural change in the fish as they grew, and that I was just paranoid.
Thanks for being so honest and conscientious. It's rare and precious these days.

Proper water changes are a staple of our hobby. Without much detail: if you have not a lot of actively growing plants, your tank water accumulates not only growth-inhibiting hormones released by fish (a natural fish response mechanism protecting fishes in a smaller than ideal environment) but also
-- nitrates
-- phosphorus compounds
-- sulfur compounds
-- salts like sodium chloride, potassium chloride, etc.
-- in other words everything that is included in the food offered and is processed by your tank's ecosystem (fish + bacteria) that does not turn to gas (like a portion of nitrogen from NO3 to nitrogen gas; and CO2)

Also, looks like you don't clean up the tank / vacuum much, because if you did, you'd have to have frequent WCs.

These are not good practices. High nitrates alone can cause all kinds of digestive and the resulting immune system problems in your pets.

Do you use a test kit? If yes, what kind? What are the nitrates?

One cannot go by the water appearance to the eye. Color and turbidity have little and often nothing to do with the accumulation of toxins in the water, like NO3. In all/most major rivers, NO3 measures close to 0 ppm or essentially 0 ppm. It is generally advisable to keep nitrates at 10 ppm or below in our fish tanks.
 

thebiggerthebetter

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thebiggerthebetter, thank you for mentioning a pool! I just checked out the prices and they are much more realistic for me, considering these guys need something quickly and temporarily until I find a real tank.
But, pools and rubber tubs are a whole new thing for me. I can get the general details elsewhere online, but do you have any special tips?
There is a DIY section on the main forum page. An excellent resource. Very simply, an inflatable intex pool of at least 10' diameter by 3' deep, bigger is of course better, like 12'-14'. Many have some success with the vinyl liners, many don't. I'd not do it. I'd put a 45 mil EDPM pond rubber liner in the pond. Simple but properly sized submersible pond pump, set up bio-filter(s) (a big tub like a barrel or a rubbermade tub stuffed with nylon mesh pot scrubbies) with aquasock(s) for easy and best cleaning practice (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?508202-Monster-s-DIY-Monster-Sized-Filter-socks-*Stop-changing-out-filter-socks-everyday&p=6084230#post6084230) and you are done.
 
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