IDEA : Japanese Style Filtration...

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
For a Japanese stocked tank, having a sump that is 50% of the tank volume would be considered small. Having one of our 30% sumps would just be crazy.
 
CHOMPERS;2770995; said:
The mechanism behind gas exchange is diffusion. Google it and look for the equation that goes along with it. The factors (for solids and liquids) are time, temperature, pressure, surface area, concentrations, and the diffusion gradient. (Notice that "agitation" has no place in the equation.) The bubbles add to the surface area between the air and water, and in fact do increase the rate of diffusion.

Although I have been out of high school for many years, and I didnt take any science classes in college. I but I think I recall that diffusion is simply, a process of which molecules from areas of high concentration to low concentration, and when that is met I belive it is called equilibrium.

What I have always belived this to be true and still do is that an airstone oxygenates the water by 1. agitating the surface of the water thus creating a better exchange of disolved oxygen and carbon dioxide. 2. Creating current under the surface and helping CO2 and other gasses rise to the top of the water column.

So are you saying that the bubbles themselves are oxygenating the water? And that the agitation created on the surface is NOT aiding on gas exchange?

Also take a bucket of water and put a couple drops of dye in it. It will eventually diffuse to equalibrium. Now if you stir that bucket "agitation" dye will disperse faster.

I am not saying your argument is right or wrong nor mine right or wrong. I am having a hard time grasping that agitation does not excelerate gas exchange.
 
heavyhitter;2775441; said:
Very insightful.

To the point actually.

You've actually proven my point about aeration yourself.

If the air - water surface interchange is where gas exchange takes place, how do you define the air - water surface interchange of a bubble differently? And the quantity of surface area of say 10 seconds worth of bubbles far exceeds the the surface area of the tank. As the bubble breaks the surface tension and erupts, it exhausts the transferred gases (offgassing). And at the same time agitating the water surface allowing more offgassing.

We've never said the surface wasn't a functional part of the gas exchange.

Your dye example is in error unless you use a dye that is buoyant in water.

Dr Joe

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While i was looking up diy overflows on youtube I ran across this setup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxpBOGXkGls&feature=related
this link is the same concept just as a commercial application http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFQBMDQIdwQ&feature=related
they only other info i could find was this site http://www.multivis.nl/moving-uk.htm. after watching the videos Like always ended up on here and found this thread. the system seems to be similar and some sort of FBF just without sand. Has anyone here have actual expirence with type of set up? Also the name i've found it under is moving bed filter.
 
heavyhitter;2775708; said:
Also take a bucket of water and put a couple drops of dye in it. It will eventually diffuse to equalibrium. Now if you stir that bucket "agitation" dye will disperse faster.
I'm seeing the problem. It is in the definition of 'agitation'. I don't remember which dictionary has the dates of usage in it, but along with the dates is an abreviation 'obs.' It stands for obsolete and indicates that that definition is no longer in use. The definition that is no longer in use is the one related to vigorous stiring. The most commonly used definition would relate to ripples across the surface. There are pockets of varying dialects all over, so I am guessing we were raised using the different definitions.

Anyway, for clarity, lets either use 'circulation', 'stirring', or 'ripples'. Any mechanism that mixes the water is always a good thing. Ripples or wave action's contribution to mixing is very minimal at best. Google 'waves' to find an animation of the actual water movement in waves. The water doesn't go anywhere. There is a circular pattern that is contained at the surface but it is only approximated by the height of the ripples. So at best, for ripples contributing to circulation, it is only minimal.

However, don't confuse circulation as part of diffusion. It is still separate. The gas exchange occurs strictly where the air meets the water.
When using diffusion to describe the gas exchange, it is to mean what occurs at the surface (rather than dissolved gasses diffusing through the water). Circulation is important as you previously mentioned. Any method of circulating the water is helpful in bringing water lower in the tank to the surface. However it should be known that diffusion is a slow process. Having extremely high circulation won't increase the diffusion process over modest circulation.


heavyhitter;2775708; said:
So are you saying that the bubbles themselves are oxygenating the water?
Dr. Joe's explanation is top notch. :thumbsup:
 
stixx;2777104; said:
While i was looking up diy overflows on youtube I ran across this setup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxpBOGXkGls&feature=related
this link is the same concept just as a commercial application http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFQBMDQIdwQ&feature=related
they only other info i could find was this site http://www.multivis.nl/moving-uk.htm. after watching the videos Like always ended up on here and found this thread. the system seems to be similar and some sort of FBF just without sand. Has anyone here have actual expirence with type of set up? Also the name i've found it under is moving bed filter.

also know as a bio-reactor to some, heres a thread about a diy one- http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203203&highlight=bio-reactor

ive been thinking bout trying this, but i hear bio balls aren't the right media, despite the fact i got 60+g worth sitting around.:irked:
 
dmopar74;2777300; said:
ive been thinking bout trying this, but i hear bio balls aren't the right media, despite the fact i got 60+g worth sitting around.:irked:
You could be the zennzzo of Bio-Balls. :D
 
CHOMPERS;2770967; said:
Ceramic rings have an indefinite life; the benefit of the micro pores is only good for six months. If you have premium mechanical filtration prior to the fine pore media, it will last longer.
Now this is where we implement the Kmuda method (from another board). Kmuda, a user on oscarfish.com, is known as the filtration king over there... Just like zennzo is scrubbie master, and JGray12 is practiced in all things FX5.

He has media coming out of his ears, not to mention filtration! His 100 gallon tanks is so overfiltered it could totally pwn shamu's filtration at seaworld.

His media lasts forever because he rotates it. The stuff in the tank is swapped out in certain amounts at certain time periods (I could probably PM him about a solid schedule) and boiled. He boils sponges, blue bonded (keeps it fluffy and makes it last FOREVER), quilt batting, and ceramic rings. After he boils it he ends up with Kmuda Soup, all the old bacteria and goop that had grown all over the media. (add salt and you have dinner for a week! haha jk).

No media is worth anything without proper maintenance, and part of the maintenance of ceramic cylinders is making sure the pores are kept open and exfoliated (i feel like I am writing a makeup commercial!)
 
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