Is It Ethical to Keep Pets and Other Animals?

[skjl47]

With that being said, if you follow the most up to date care and especially if you are going to contribute to furthering research or even captive breeding of primarily wild-caught species, I see no problem with the ethics of keeping animals.

Hello; For the sake of discussion lets us figure you and a few others do manage to provide good care for the pets kept. Even some steps beyond good care are managed and new insights are achieved concerning captive breeding of previously all wild caught species. Even with such success there will be the remaining pet keepers who fall well short of even basic good care practice.

Lets further presume those more elite pet owners have to shop for their pets and equipment somewhere maybe from a local shop or big store. To stay in business shops have to sell to all of us. I have seen folks making serious mistakes in pet stores myself. I have witnessed over the last five decades home aquarium disasters as well as dogs kept in awful conditions. Then we all see threads on a regular basis here about sick fish. How often when we dig into the problems does it turn out the fish keeper has made some basic errors?

My point or points in this post is to make a case about pet keeping in general. Sure some folks keep their pets in good conditions. I even can imagine that one of these good pet keepers can buy a puppy from a pet mill and give that puppy a very good home. The puppy mill will still exist and the female dog who gave birth to that lucky puppy will have given birth to other puppies who too often wind up in poor conditions. How many liters will that female be pressed into having over time? That the good pet keeper gives a good home also means his/her purchase allows the puppy mill to make money and stay in business.
As long as we keep plunking down money for pets, the institutions making a profit will keep on doing what they do.

I stopped helping or encouraging people I know to get an aquarium decades ago. Way too many time the end result is a tragedy for the pet. I now make out how much there is to learn and how hard it can be to keep up with the care. Do I still keep fish? Yes I do. Am I guilty of helping the bad side of the commercial structure keep going? Yes I am.

 

[FuriousFish]

Hello; For the sake of discussion lets us figure you and a few others do manage to provide good care for the pets kept. Even some steps beyond good care are managed and new insights are achieved concerning captive breeding of previously all wild caught species. Even with such success there will be the remaining pet keepers who fall well short of even basic good care practice.

Lets further presume those more elite pet owners have to shop for their pets and equipment somewhere maybe from a local shop or big store. To stay in business shops have to sell to all of us. I have seen folks making serious mistakes in pet stores myself. I have witnessed over the last five decades home aquarium disasters as well as dogs kept in awful conditions. Then we all see threads on a regular basis here about sick fish. How often when we dig into the problems does it turn out the fish keeper has made some basic errors?

My point or points in this post is to make a case about pet keeping in general. Sure some folks keep their pets in good conditions. I even can imagine that one of these good pet keepers can buy a puppy from a pet mill and give that puppy a very good home. The puppy mill will still exist and the female dog who gave birth to that lucky puppy will have given birth to other puppies who too often wind up in poor conditions. How many liters will that female be pressed into having over time? That the good pet keeper gives a good home also means his/her purchase allows the puppy mill to make money and stay in business.
As long as we keep plunking down money for pets, the institutions making a profit will keep on doing what they do.

I stopped helping or encouraging people I know to get an aquarium decades ago. Way too many time the end result is a tragedy for the pet. I now make out how much there is to learn and how hard it can be to keep up with the care. Do I still keep fish? Yes I do. Am I guilty of helping the bad side of the commercial structure keep going? Yes I am.

That is a very good point, and I do believe that overall it is unethical, just from what I have seen. The average person is likely not going to seek out help join forums or even read up on proper care at all. It's definitely a really hard topic and I don't know if there is an answer/solution. My comment was on the people who do keep their animals properly, which is likely a small percentage. While they (myself included of course) are also guilty of helping the bad side I don't see how it would make a major impact even if all the good pet keepers boycotted by no longer keeping animals, it's also just not realistic.

That's somewhat off-topic but I agree with you that in general, the pet trade is undoubtedly unethical. Loving this thread by the way, very interesting topic.

 

[skjl47]

While they (myself included of course) are also guilty of helping the bad side I don't see how it would make a major impact even if all the good pet keepers boycotted by no longer keeping animals, it's also just not realistic.

Hello; Yes it is just not realistic on several levels. I want and need pet shops to exist so I can have fish. Been keeping fish a long time and am not yet ready to quit.

By the way I commend you on the way you act in this thread. It is good to have a discussion with a civil exchange of ideas.

 

[FuriousFish]

Hello; Yes it is just not realistic on several levels. I want and need pet shops to exist so I can have fish. Been keeping fish a long time and am not yet ready to quit.

By the way I commend you on the way you act in this thread. It is good to have a discussion with a civil exchange of ideas.

I completely agree with you. And thanks, I definitely love hearing other people's ideas and learning different viewpoints. A civil exchange of ideas is the best way to gain knowledge and possibly find a solution!

 

[duanes]

I keep thinking of that woman who raised chimps from babies to adults, thinking they loved her for it, then one day an adult chimp ripped the woman's arm clean off.
or.........bringing it down to a fish level.
In the Cenotes of Mexico the upwelling of water from underground, changes the entire volume (millions of gallons)of the Cenotes every day for the endemic Rocio (jack dempseys)
With that in mind, is it ethical to put a JD in a box of 100 gallons or less, and only change 50% of the water once per week?
I think not.
But I'm sure, others do.

 

[skjl47]

I keep thinking of that woman who raised chimps from babies to adults, thinking they loved her for it, then one day an adult chimp ripped the woman's arm clean off.
or.........bringing it down to a fish level.
In the Cenotes of Mexico the upwelling of water from underground, changes the entire volume (millions of gallons)of the Cenotes every day for the endemic Rocio (jack dempseys)
With that in mind, is it ethical to put a JD in a box of 100 gallons or less, and only change 50% of the water once per week?
I think not.
But I'm sure, others do.

Hello; I do recall something about a "pet" chimps. The one I am thinking of is where the chimp tore a woman's face mostly off. Not sure if this is two different incidents. If your point is these animals do not necessarily feel the same way about us as we do about them, I do get it. A fantasy of mine sometimes when folks get to thinking their fish or other pets "love" them is to picture what would happen if we owners were to be shrunk down to bite size and fell into a tank of fish. (I also assume in the fantasy the fish know it is us..) Maybe dogs are capable of giving back something that mimics "love", maybe not but it is easy to think so.

I recall a story I found some years back when I was in a heated discussion about pit bull dogs. It seems a man had raised two pit bulls from pups. When he did not show up as expected for a few days someone went to his place. He had been killed by his pet dogs. Do I have some inside understanding about why these things happen? No I do not. I just know this is not the only time such a thing has happened with those particular type dogs.

I started keeping fish back when I was 11 or 12 years old. I had very poor fishkeeping practices back then. My practices have much improved but as yet do not match, or even come near, the water quality of a natural setting. I do not know that I would begin to keep fish in a tank now as a new fishkeeper if I somehow had the knowledge currently available. When you (duanes) so often point out how in the wild nitrates are nearly always at or near zero, I take it to heart. I am to a point of very low stocking density and have been for some years, decades I guess by now. If the power goes out I do not lose fish and do not have to take any steps other than reduced or no feeding.

I guess I am more into having live plants the last few years rather than having fish. I do still have fish but at reduced numbers. I question the ethics of keeping pets in general from time to time and do wrestle with it a bit. I usually get over the ethics of it after a nap and continue on.
I have used the rationalization of my fish being able to live longer in my care than they would in the wild in the past. That works well enough in that there is a kernel of truth to it. I get a negative vibe on the idea of the fish somehow wanting to live longer in a glass box than in their natural habitats. Another fall back in to tell myself we are doing away with their natural habitats so my glass box, as poor a substitute as it is, my be their only sanctuary some day.

I normally watch PBS on wednesday evenings. The NOVA and other nature shows. During the last few weeks they have been heavy on environment and climate change programming, well until last night anyway. Last night it was older reruns. I think I understand what was going on with the scheduling. Anyway one of the shows had several older folks explaining why they were pushing for some particular solution or another. (Note -for what my opinion may be worth too little and too late sort of solutions to my mind. Sort of makes me think of a tank contaminated with high nitrates and them doing a less than one percent water change.)
Some of those in the shows are currently in the environment battle, as they said, because of their children and grandchildren. To those who do not know my story I fought the environment battle to a losing point decades ago. One of my personal solutions back around 1975 when in my mid 20's was to have a vasectomy so as to not bring extra children into an already, even back then, over populated world. As is often pointed out that action made little or no difference in the big picture. It has made my old age more comfortable in that I do not have children nor grandchildren to be worried about. At the same time I am likely very much more lonely now days. I accept the being lonely over the worry. What does this have to do with ethics of keeping fish in a glass tank? Little I suppose, other than I can live with my choice to keep fish in a glass tank a bit easier in some sense. My other ethical issues perhaps overshadow my aquariums.

Sorry for the ramble. Somehow I got started and it just went on and on.