thank you, and i hope a debate doesn't happen i am planning on using the advise i get. I don't want to break any ethical law. Just like you wont see 20 arrows in a 10 gal as i saw last night on another post on bad ethics. before you can actually know any thing you have to learn it some how. That is where i am in my hobby. I research with all my free time, and you just don't find reliable answers to little questions like this one. This site is great i'm hooked all you guys are very knowlagable cause you do this too! even the bad ones must have some good ideas. Thanks for the feedback, I have alot of other questions I will be asking in the future. I hope you all help me, help my hobby. We have bad water in/on this half of wa state. so it is testament to my dillagence that i have such good water quality in the eyes of lfs' and my peers. i am a student of the game!