Is the electric blue gene a man made trait?

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Same with the red severum you mentioned in original post that is not a man made gene but a line bred trait.

Once again, as the facts currently stand, no one on this forum can say with any certainty how a red severum is created, because no one on this forum has the slightest clue. I have far more faith in the EBJD being pure, compared to a red sev.

An old thread where red severum origins were discussed .......

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?303509-How-did-we-get-the-super-red-severum



Ironically I owned one of the EBJD from the first batch that Jeff Rapps imported many years ago, and certainly have nothing against the fish in question - when healthy they are stunning fish. I just find it a bit comical when people speak in such a definitive manner about something that isn't definitive at all.


Carry on .......
 
I still think there is something unnatural going on with red severums. Have you ever seen anyone producing F1 red severums in the several years since they've been available? I've read a few accounts of male reds pairing with female golds, and I read one account here of two reds spawning and throwing all gold fry. Add to that the fact that almost every red severum being sold now is slightly short-bodied, and I'd say we are dealing with heavy inbreeding. Not to mention that the original super reds I got were actually more of a bright orange color, but the ones I've seen in the years since are almost neon red, to the point that they look like hormone-juiced discus. I still think there's more at play there than just genetics.

However, electric blue acaras and electric blue rams breed true, and to my knowledge these fish do not spawn outside of their genus. I have never seen anyone cross a ram to another species of fish. This leads me to believe that the chances of hybridization to get the electric blue gene are slim. I can't rule it out because I have no proof, but I'll be in the "highly unlikely" camp until someone proves otherwise. Late last year I did unintentionally get some hybrid Geos, so anything is possible.

I do find it odd that the electric blue coloration is so prevalent in South American based cichlids. Blue diamond discus have been around for a couple decades and they are essentially the same in coloration as other electric blue cichlids. Then you have EB acaras, EBJD, EB rams, Thai silk flowerhorns (same iridescent blue), etc. These are all fish that contain a lot of natural blue iridescence to begin with, so maybe it's a mutated gene that causes the color to express over the entire body rather than in striation/spotting as it usually would. This is essentially how pigeon blood discus came about -- the mutation causes the black pigment that forms the nine vertical stress bars on normal discus to disperse and spread throughout the body, giving you the "peppering" seen on pigeon bloods.

Also, if you want to do some fun reading on angelfish genetics, look into the Philippine Blue gene, or more recently, the Bulgarian Green gene. These came from average, aquarium-bred angel strains. In the case of the Bulgarian Green gene, the breeder noticed something odd in fry that had been line-bred for several generations in his own hatchery, raised the fry out and bred them, and found that he could get the gene to express in multiple strains of angels. So these naturally occuring mutations do happen, it just takes someone with a trained eye to notice a difference in very young fish and isolate them to work with them specifically. It's how most of the aquarium strains of discus came about, all the way back to Wattley Turquoise.
 
Well it seems clear enough that in the case of the electric blue gene, these fish have been produced by isolating one or more recessive genes that create this pigmentation. I think that its safe for everyone to agree on that.

What is not so clear is how this recessive gene has been isolated, and or introduced into each of these lines. Outside of the EBJD (at least as far as anyone is saying) these fish have pretty much all been produced in the hybrid capital of the world, SE Asia. While that has always troubled me, that certainly doesn't prove that any of these strains are hybrids. Having said that, the blue Thai Silk, another hybrid blue fish that comes out of Malaysia (via a Thai breeder), along with other metallic blue flowerhorns such as some of the more recent "titanium" strains , do for the most part breed true.

If you introduce a gene (naturally, or artifically) and then selectively line breed those fish for many generations, over several years, you can pretty much fix that trait and take those fish back to being almost 100% pure again. Many hybrid fish on the market breed true, because after a decade of fixing the trait chosen those fish are indeed almost genetically pure again. Lots can be acheived via artificial conditions in a controlled environment of a lab, and if all of these super blue (or red) fish were nothing more than a discovery by someone with a keen eye - then why all the hush-hush mystery out of SE Asia?

Why does this only seem to happen in Bangkok, Taiwan, Singapore, etc? Hmmmmm. I'm not quite ready to drink the electric blue kool-aid. :)
 
Once again, as the facts currently stand, no one on this forum can say with any certainty how a red severum is created, because no one on this forum has the slightest clue. I have far more faith in the EBJD being pure, compared to a red sev.
+1

If you introduce a gene (naturally, or artifically) and then selectively line breed those fish for many generations, over several years, you can pretty much fix that trait and take those fish back to being almost 100% pure again.
That's the argument with EBJD that imo you can't just debate away as a possibility imo. At this point I rather doubt it, needing something more than an element of doubt as substantiation-- some standard JDs already have some blue, turquoise, etc., so I don't see where it requires another fish to introduce it; also, EBJD being as fragile as they are argues for a recessive mutation rather than a hybrid gene imo-- but that doesn't mean I can 100% dismiss it.

As far as electric blue fish in general, in the age of fish gene tomatoes and jelly fish gene glow-in-the-dark danios, who knows how they're getting them, when they're shrouded in secrecy without a plausible Hector Luzardo type story to account for them? Whatever the case, whether line breeding, inbreeding, cross breeding or whatever, they're apparently on to something that works with some species. IMO that's just the bargain with some of the recent designer fish, not knowing exactly whether the result is something naturally within the potential of the species or something more artificial.
 
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