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This breed is not rare or hard to breed. Anyone and their moms can breed these and throw them to lfs.
Is This Red Devil a Hybrid?
- Thread starter MonsterCichlids75
- Start date
o
This breed is not rare or hard to breed. Anyone and their moms can breed these and throw them to lfs.
You are taking it to an extreme. Midas/red devil mixes are well known from the time they were thought to be the same species, so the pond breeders put them in together. Same with convicts. Is it possible to get a pure one from a fish farm? I suppose, but it is what's know as a statistical impossibility. Ie that percentage is so low that it's not feasible that it will happen.
With wilds, it's more a chance of getting the wrong species instead of a hybrid, except in places where human intervention entered the equation (ie that canal that connected the Media Luna with the carpintis water systems creating a hybrid that would never exist in nature).
And yes, I've gotten different species than what it was listed in wild fish before. It happens. The collectors often don't know the scientific difference between similiar species, nor does the exporter, the importer, the wholesaler, or the LFS. Usually these aren't experts in the fish they deal with, they are business men. That's why people like Rusty Wessel and Jeff Rapps get business by people that want a particular wild species. They are also in the hobby, not just the business side. They have the knowledge to properly ID something and the connections with actual hobbyist with Doctorates in biology to double check like Dr. Wayne Leibel or Dr. Paul Loiselle.
With wilds, it's more a chance of getting the wrong species instead of a hybrid, except in places where human intervention entered the equation (ie that canal that connected the Media Luna with the carpintis water systems creating a hybrid that would never exist in nature).
And yes, I've gotten different species than what it was listed in wild fish before. It happens. The collectors often don't know the scientific difference between similiar species, nor does the exporter, the importer, the wholesaler, or the LFS. Usually these aren't experts in the fish they deal with, they are business men. That's why people like Rusty Wessel and Jeff Rapps get business by people that want a particular wild species. They are also in the hobby, not just the business side. They have the knowledge to properly ID something and the connections with actual hobbyist with Doctorates in biology to double check like Dr. Wayne Leibel or Dr. Paul Loiselle.
@animal guy
Nope i have f0 and f1 midas. Dont know about your fish. No mutts here.
The problem is, keep your personal opinions out of your advice. Im sure no one here who knows better would have told this guy his fish is without a doubt a red devil. Thats just not responsible. So basically why bother have this website? Why bother people coming in here and asking for advice on their fish by species? So all advice should be generalized since theres is no proof any of us have wild caught or pure anything. Right? We all just have a tank full of the mutts. No one has a jag, no one has a dovii we just have parachromis like mutts. So lets give generalized advice on keeping one to all the new fish keepers. Yeah that should make for a great future of the hobby.
Thing is animal i get what your saying and people could debate you all day long but what it should not have been used to give advice to further encourage wrongful labeling and distribution of fish. Its a slap in the face for anyone trying to bring pure and rarefish back into the hobby for someone just to say weve all been fooled and are fish are all mutts because on top of going to their natural centralized habitats, catching them and bringing them back vendors and importers didnt give us paper work by scientist to prove theyre pure.
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Nope i have f0 and f1 midas. Dont know about your fish. No mutts here.
The problem is, keep your personal opinions out of your advice. Im sure no one here who knows better would have told this guy his fish is without a doubt a red devil. Thats just not responsible. So basically why bother have this website? Why bother people coming in here and asking for advice on their fish by species? So all advice should be generalized since theres is no proof any of us have wild caught or pure anything. Right? We all just have a tank full of the mutts. No one has a jag, no one has a dovii we just have parachromis like mutts. So lets give generalized advice on keeping one to all the new fish keepers. Yeah that should make for a great future of the hobby.
Thing is animal i get what your saying and people could debate you all day long but what it should not have been used to give advice to further encourage wrongful labeling and distribution of fish. Its a slap in the face for anyone trying to bring pure and rarefish back into the hobby for someone just to say weve all been fooled and are fish are all mutts because on top of going to their natural centralized habitats, catching them and bringing them back vendors and importers didnt give us paper work by scientist to prove theyre pure.
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by what kind of proof? Mr ________ said so? You say so? Show paper work
/some science lol or they are mutts..
Those that go through checks and have proof should be the ones that are worth a lot $.. Not $10-20$ Wild caught said by mouth that's silly
What the hell do we have in this hobby if not trust ? You still didnt say what we should do now that all our fish are mutts. What advice and guidelines do we follow and give now?
Yes i do consider i have wild pure fish based on what the one man that went to collect them told me. What else could i possibly go by? Crap if thats the case everyone with wild festae, umbee, midas, dovii, jags, quick stop breeding and distributing your fish.
Havent you heard? Theyre mutts. You were all lied to.
So lets take down all the sections and just make one general advice thread. Whats the point of giving specialized species information and advice if theyre all the same fish. Thats not a loiseli thats just a yellowish jag. You have no proof its pure anything. Thats no convict, sajica or honduran red point, thats just a small cichlid with more stripes than that one, and less blue than those. Silly guys.
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Yes i do consider i have wild pure fish based on what the one man that went to collect them told me. What else could i possibly go by? Crap if thats the case everyone with wild festae, umbee, midas, dovii, jags, quick stop breeding and distributing your fish.
Havent you heard? Theyre mutts. You were all lied to.
So lets take down all the sections and just make one general advice thread. Whats the point of giving specialized species information and advice if theyre all the same fish. Thats not a loiseli thats just a yellowish jag. You have no proof its pure anything. Thats no convict, sajica or honduran red point, thats just a small cichlid with more stripes than that one, and less blue than those. Silly guys.
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Most fish sold as RDs are actually Midevils. A hybrid of some sort between a RD and a Midas. True Red devils are hard to come by unless you get them from a reputable dealer that goes and collects them from the wild like Rapps.
Rapps has photos of himself with the wild Nicaraguan fish in hand, in Nicaragua. He can tell you the bodies of water he sampled and the days he was down there, which coincide with a time when he was not available through his website or shipping out of his facility. Proof enough for me. Either that or he's got a VERY elaborate scheme going on...
Legitimate A. citrinellus or A. labiatus must show up in random shops from time to time through trade in, but what is the ratio of those fish to the generic Florida farm raised mutts? I'd put it at odds of 1000:1 or so.
In addition to the A. citrinellus and labiatus, Jeff imported several other species of cichlid and a bunch of uber-rare Nicaraguan catfish, livebearers, etc. at the same time.
Proof enough for me as well.
Matt
Proof enough for me as well.
Matt
Woah, this thread really took off i see, well nice to see a healthy debate going on lol i think i may have not been as clear as i should have in my original post. This fish, lets be honest, isnt a 100% pure red devil. Yes it looks like it had a lot of RD genes in it but i cant imagine that its a pure one. What i really meant to ask is based on the pictures, does this fish look at all like somewhere down the line it got those hybrid "blood parrots" thrown into the genes? The mouth is what makes me think this. While it doesnt have a deformed mouth like the parrots too, its mouth does stay rather open when its in the "closed" position. Also the ventral fins seem to stick out a bit wider like ive seen on blood parrots. Its upper jaw extends out a bit more than the lower jaw idk if that makes a difference. I like the fish a lot its super cool and healthy and can use its mouth just fine, i was just curious if anyone else saw any blood parrot in it
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