......or perhaps they just don't have the intellect to associate that this water flow is the source of their discomfort.......perchance there is any discomfort that is.
This is akin to a dog sticking its face out the window of a fast moving car lol
I've Never Used Water Conditioners...Anyone Else?
- Thread starter fisheatfish
- Start date
......or perhaps they just don't have the intellect to associate that this water flow is the source of their discomfort.......perchance there is any discomfort that is.
This is akin to a dog sticking its face out the window of a fast moving car lol
LOL!!!!!
The point is they are doing fine. Been fine. Its not just 1 or 2 years just almost a decade with the same tank... There is only one way to know if they're truly in discomfort is when thy go belly up lol
No prob, as long as one isn't giving out misinformation at the same time. Clearly you have no experience with chloramine.
The local water treatment manager here has also conducted similar tests as Duane, chloramine does not just dissipate as low residuals of chlorine can. After conducting my own tests with our local water I concur, which is why I also use a product that renders free ammonia safe for my fish upon contact as well.
There is really only 2 cases here:
1. Your local tap water contains no chlorine/chloramine, or such low levels of chlorine/chloramine that a water conditioner is not required with the size of water change performed.
2. Your local tap water contains significant disinfectant residual and requires a water conditioner to render your tap water 100% safe for your fish.
This isn't exactly rocket science.
Cost? Not even a factor if one knows what they are doing, and sources out a cheap treatment product such as Seachem Safe, or even better for those on chlorine only, bulk sodium thiosulfate. Water conditioner is the least costly item in this hobby, so for the vast majority of folks that aren't 100% certain as to what their local water conditions are year round, it is always a good idea to use them.
I posted the following a few yrs ago ......
Both chlorine &/or chloramine can cause long term damage & even death to fish, in some cases even at low levels, especially young fish which are typically the most sensitive to these substances. Free chlorine can cause acute necrosis of gill tissue in fish, the younger the fish the worse it can be. In short chlorine is an oxidizer, that can burn a fishes gills & kill cell tissue, sometimes even at low levels.
The amount of chlorine and or chloramine can vary greatly from one municipality to another, as well as from one tap to another, and can also vary greatly throughout the season. There is no way that anyone on a public forum can possibly attempt to tell you what a "safe" amount is in your case unless they have the specs on your local tap water at your user end. Water temp, pH values, etc can also determine how 'safe' certain levels of known toxic substances such as chlorine/chloramine can be on fish.
According to Edward Noga, a professor at NC State that is considered an expert in the disease & health of fish, chlorine levels as low as 0.10 mg/l (which is very common in many tap water levels) can be acutely fatal in aquaria that has low levels of organics. (as in a new set up) Others have found residual chlorine levels as low as 0.05 mg/l to be toxic to certain species of fish. Many areas of the USA contain 2-3 mg/l of either chlorine, or chloramine.
There has been a TON of work done in this area over the past few decades, by a number of researchers, such as Tompkins & Tsai (1976) for anyone that is interested in understanding just how toxic both chlorine & chloramine can be in a closed system that contains fish.
The fact that a fish doesn't die shortly after performing a water change sans any type of conditioner in no way means that the exposure hasn't caused damage to the fish.
Both chlorine &/or chloramine can cause long term damage & even death to fish, in some cases even at low levels, especially young fish which are typically the most sensitive to these substances. Free chlorine can cause acute necrosis of gill tissue in fish, the younger the fish the worse it can be. In short chlorine is an oxidizer, that can burn a fishes gills & kill cell tissue, sometimes even at low levels.
The amount of chlorine and or chloramine can vary greatly from one municipality to another, as well as from one tap to another, and can also vary greatly throughout the season. There is no way that anyone on a public forum can possibly attempt to tell you what a "safe" amount is in your case unless they have the specs on your local tap water at your user end. Water temp, pH values, etc can also determine how 'safe' certain levels of known toxic substances such as chlorine/chloramine can be on fish.
According to Edward Noga, a professor at NC State that is considered an expert in the disease & health of fish, chlorine levels as low as 0.10 mg/l (which is very common in many tap water levels) can be acutely fatal in aquaria that has low levels of organics. (as in a new set up) Others have found residual chlorine levels as low as 0.05 mg/l to be toxic to certain species of fish. Many areas of the USA contain 2-3 mg/l of either chlorine, or chloramine.
There has been a TON of work done in this area over the past few decades, by a number of researchers, such as Tompkins & Tsai (1976) for anyone that is interested in understanding just how toxic both chlorine & chloramine can be in a closed system that contains fish.
The fact that a fish doesn't die shortly after performing a water change sans any type of conditioner in no way means that the exposure hasn't caused damage to the fish.
Hello; To be more correct I do not use the water conditioner all the time even now. I have had an infestation of sheet/slime/cyanobacter algae in my tanks for a while now. Back in the summer I moved all my tanks from the room where they are kept in order to take up the carpet and put down commercial grade vinyl flooring. Partly for the tanks and partly for the new wood stove as a flue is in that room.
I decided to try to clean out the tanks and all equiipment with a clorox solution in the process. I discovered that I needed to treat the clorox residue. I used the water conditioner in the tanks and in five gallon buckets where the equipment was soaked. As this will be an ongoing project I decided to have some water conditioner on hand. I first found the PRIME at an area shop. They did not stock the SAFE. After a bit of math I ask them to order the SAFE for me.
SIDE NOTE- the sale of PRIME must be a nice proffit maker for the company. They apparently just add some water?? I compare this to pre-mixed auto antifreeze which is regular antifreeze with some additional water at very nearly the same cost as regular full strength antifreeze. I buy a gallon of full strength antifreeze and a gallon of distilled water and mix my own for much less cost.
Having the water conditioner on hand has led me to use it during water changes from time to time currently although I still simply store tap water.
I do get a water quality report from my local water company from time to time. I also have met with the local water company cheif engineer to discuss the question of any possible change from chlorine only to other chemicals. His response is that this is unlikely and that ample notice will be given in case this should happen.
As far as mixing the stuff up, I have yet to empty the small bottle of PRIME so cannot comment. I sort of think of this like driving a car with rain sensing windshield wipers. I need to be alert while driving and tend to notice when it rains. Reaching over and turning on the wipers is a part of driving and not so bad. I hope to be able to mix up the SAFE without too much trouble. I may try to mix up a years worth batch and keep it in a container.
FYI - One cannot premix Safe, unless used up within approx. 30 days. The reason given to me by the head chemist/CEO of Seachem was the "watered down" version contains stabilizers that allow it to sit on a shelf for years with no negative effect.
Also, one can't blame the manufacturer for being greedy by adding water, they do this for the millions of hobbyists who can't be bothered to mix their own, or don't even realize that such a thing is possible. In fact, due to the ignorance of the average hobbyist Seachem just recently changed all of their recommended dosage rates on their containers. In their minds, a more simplistic dumbed down version for the average consumer. Basically the manufacturer was more concerned with loss of life from 02 reduction (or lawsuits of same?), vs simply burning a fishes gills from over exposure of chlorine/ammonia. What a world we live in, where the ignorant prevail.
They also add a stabilizer agent, otherwise Safe with water added will only have a shelf life of about 30days.....from what I've heard/read.
Its the same as buying pre-sliced fresh fruits at the supermarket, you pay significantly more for the pre-sliced stuff over the uncut.
Hello; Here is a slight side track on the subject. I recently put some water conditioner in two five gallon containers when adding the tap water. ( I have been lax about refilling them afetr a water change and needed the water ready right away.) As I have considered the jugs of stored water to be an emergency drinking water source, a question comes to mind. Is water treated with these chemicals safe form me to drink? And will the containers be OK after a rinse and fill with tap water only? (I guess if I am about to die of thrist I will try it. Perhaps after giving some to the neighbor I do not like.)
