Legality of Fly River Turtles

[M|L]

OK, I know some of us are rather frustrated with the "gray area" regarding the sales and trade of Fly River Turtles within the US due to the Lacey Act.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=346262,388412

The above claims that the animal is indeed legal to transport, sell, acquire, trade or purchase within the states.

Now, the argument is, FRT is considered illegal in the US to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase unless legitmate paperwork is presented by the country of origin under the US Lacey Act. So far, only Indonesia supply such export paperwork for "captive hatched" FRTs, but no such document has surfaced from my limited knowledge.

However, there is a loop hole, which may or may not be effective which I have discovered that bypasses the Lacey Act.

Now, "Carettochelys insculpta is not specifically covered by bilateral or inter-governmental legislation", which means, such turtles can be exported into a country, such as Singapore, Thailand, or Malaysia where they are perfectly legal (and CHEAP!), and then re-exported into the US.

This makes the "country of origin" to be Singapore, Thailand, or Malaysia (where anywhere else where there are no such regulations on this animal's trade) and therefore, making these animals LEGAL within the states.

What are your thoughts?

 

[ewurm]

If what this gentleman says is true, I think that it would be legal to transfer between individuals in the US as well as legally exported animals from other countries. My question is would that require documentation of source of the animal?

 

[Gr8KarmaSF]

gr8 news but who is this "guy"?

 

[Tongue33]

Blood Diamond.... I have no oppinion.. I was going to purchase one when i came up with the money Strike me down if you must..

I have just recently in the past few months been reading all the legal stuff.. And This did play a role in my not purchasing one but if i would have had the money i would not have been able to resist I am afraid. As the financial end was the biggest factor. I justified leaving the one i was going to purchase at the lfs with the legalities .

For the same reason I do not have any rays.. The ones i would keep are banned from export and the tank bred ones are bred to keep food on peoples plates in my opinion. Though that too if i had the money for a tank bred one I would feed someones kids for about 1.5 years...

 

[M|L]

If what this gentleman says is true, I think that it would be legal to transfer between individuals in the US as well as legally exported animals from other countries. My question is would that require documentation of source of the animal?

The initial export from the country of the animal's native range would require the proper permits, which like I said can only come from Indonesia because that is the only country that has legalized the trade of "captive hatched" FRTs.

However, lax regulations in other countries often allow undocumented imports to trickle through. Once the animal lands within a country where there are no regulations on exporting such as Malaysia (though once again, the proper paperwork should be required for the inital import) them, they can be brought into the US as legal and non-regulated animals. So that makes the original exporting permits (from Indonesia) no longer effective because the country of origin is now a legal country (ex. Malaysia).

 

[ewurm]

So would there be chain of custody paperwork? And is it required? If it's legal to export from one country, it could pass through any number of countries as long as the chain of custody was documented. That would circumvent Lacey, because it was legal to export from first country and chain of custody could be documented. If that's the case that is great, but without proper documentation, you'd be screwed.

 

[M|L]

If all this is true, then legally you are perfectly allowed to sell/buy/trade FRTs (provided the individual states and locals laws do not prohibit them) within this country.

The moral issue now is, although this loop hole will get you out of legal issues, these animals are still endangered and are, more often than not, sneaked out of it's native country illegally.

 

[ewurm]

So it's moral vs. legal issue? Makes it tough either way.

 

[varanio]

people do this all the time with other reptiles. Varanus Prasinus, Macraei, Beccarri, Salvator Cumingi are all animals that have unkown or low populations all the time. They are snuck into other countries and imported to the US legally. Check KS classifieds and see what I mean. And these are big time dealers that would lose everything if USFW caught them in the "act" but because of this loop hole USFW doesnt do much. I see the afore mentioned for sale year round.

 

[davo]

I think its a bit of a moral dilemma if these are endangered turtles... and you can be pretty sure that these are illegally caught turtles from their native origin, and that there is a loophole that has been exploited to what should really be classed as illegal smuggling of animals. Not sure if I'd want to take part in that, but I haven't really done enough research on FRTs to be 100% against it. These are just my first thoughts...