Line Breeding -- Where is the Line?

[woofy]

By the way in terms of representing the fish and fry your selling from wild parents or buying from someone who says they are f1, and keeping records of line breeding how does one confirm this anyway? Its all trust correct? There rly is no way to prove it is there? There is no akc in the fish world

And aclock i want those for sale


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[fishman09]

I believe that line breeding in the wild is way more extreme than in aquaria... If only the strongest/smartest/luckiest fish survive then all the adult fish in the wild would be considered the cream of the crop and when those fish breed and the strongest from that batch survive the bloodline only gets stronger and so forth. In aquariums hundreds of fry survive and we aren't picky about 1/2"-2" fry we ship and sell around to everyone (me included) so people aren't getting the most resilient or highest quality fish as when an adult fish is caught from the wild. So us raising up as many fry as will live may be in fact hurting the line when the fish distributed are not the so called cream of the crop.

 

[petspoiler]

I think you should do more than skim the thread. I also think to some extent you're comparing apples and oranges, or should I say fish and dogs?

ok, admittedly, I was mainly addressing the term Line Breeding and not the whole thread. those principles would apply to both apples and oranges.
but Line Breeding can be different than Creating a Line ;-)
I think you meant to head toward discussing the latter.
?

 

[Miguel]

Is Barbara's comparison so out of line? I don't think so..

 

[petspoiler]

I love you Miguel.

 

[Miguel]

I'm well aware about encroachment and other factors I didn't imply(not intentionally anyway) that breeding wild forms would be the sole reason for the survival




Also I'm not sure why me stating being responsible by keeping track of lineage wouldn't make sense to you as that's the only other point I mentioned I belive. How do we know what we're getting if we don't and be responsible to ourselves, fellow hobbyists and our fish?

Here I apologize. Once again, english is far from being my first lingo. I fully agre with you on this point. Absolutely. See (1) in my post; then I may have lost myself in of language. My bad, probably.

 

[Aquanero]

I agree as far as semantics go, Line breeding i.e. breeding family members to fix or maintain desirable traits as opposed to maintaining a line which could be maintaining a group of mostly unrelated fish from a specific geographic location. You could maintain a line of Rio Nanay P. Scalare by breeding wild caught fish together. As I stated in my last post the key is to infuse “new blood” into the breeding program periodically or you will just start producing another domestic strain. I also mentioned that most fry collected from a specific location could very easily be siblings so the introduction of new fish annually is important to diversify the blood line. This is no small undertaking and the amount of space required is immense, not only to mention an outlet for the fry or you will be over run in no time. As long as new fish are added to the breeding program you will be able to maintain a wild strain in captivity. As soon as the influx of wild fish stops the fish will start to morph into a domestic line of wild type fish. I.e. Silver Angelfish which is a domestic P. Scalare that “looks” similar to angelfish found in the wild but are no closer to wild fish than a poodle is to a wolf.
I think this is a slippery slope as far as how close and for how long a “wild” population can be maintained in captivity which, in itself is an oxymoron. Remember the Fox experiment where wild foxes were breed in close captivity and within a couple of generations the tails curled the ears flopped and they, for all intent and purposes morphed into domestic dogs for want of a better description. Maintained in a natural setting in and enormous game preserve they stay wild for an indefinite amount of time but will still evolve certain traits unique to their environment and living conditions. What it comes down to is how wild is wild and what are you willing to settle for. I can never duplicate the exact ecosystem found in the Rio Nanay in New Jersey.

 

[Miguel]

Exactly. To use your expression, Tom, you hit the nail in the head.

 

[dogofwar]

It's not all trust. Especially in the Central American hobby, where there just aren't regular commercial exports of cichlids, most fish that enter there hobby are offspring of fish collected by hobbyists, scientists, etc.... or from special one-off exports (like the ones that Rapps did from Lake Nicaragua a few years ago).

It's really not that hard to track provenance, if you care to.

Matt

By the way in terms of representing the fish and fry your selling from wild parents or buying from someone who says they are f1, and keeping records of line breeding how does one confirm this anyway? Its all trust correct? There rly is no way to prove it is there? There is no akc in the fish world

And aclock i want those for sale


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

 

[dogofwar]

That's a great way to describe it: Line breeding in the wild IS way more extreme than in the aquaria. Only the best adapted (and luckiest) survive to reproduce.

Something to think about also is that the waterways of Central America aren't pristine. And the native habitats aren't influenced only by natural factors. For example, managuenis and other guapates (and Tilapia, plecos, etc.) have been introduced all over CA. How do these invasives and non-natives alter habitats in ways that require some native species to adapt or perish? Same with fishing: How does generation after generation of fishing (targeting the largest fish) influence populations (another form of "line breeding")?

Finally, the traits that Mother Nature (+ man's influence on natural habitats) "select for" in natural selection aren't necessarily the same ones that hobbyists favor. The biggest, boldest, brightest fish may get eaten. Or killed by introduced fish. Or maybe not. Or maybe (previously) predatory fish adapt different body shapes, color, jaw structures as a result of a new diet (e.g. detritus from Plecos vs. small fish).

"Highest quality" is really meaningless when you try to compare wild and aquarium fish.

Matt

I believe that line breeding in the wild is way more extreme than in aquaria... If only the strongest/smartest/luckiest fish survive then all the adult fish in the wild would be considered the cream of the crop and when those fish breed and the strongest from that batch survive the bloodline only gets stronger and so forth. In aquariums hundreds of fry survive and we aren't picky about 1/2"-2" fry we ship and sell around to everyone (me included) so people aren't getting the most resilient or highest quality fish as when an adult fish is caught from the wild. So us raising up as many fry as will live may be in fact hurting the line when the fish distributed are not the so called cream of the crop.