Massivore Question

thebiggerthebetter

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According the ingredients listed on the Massivore Delite label, starch is the 3rd ingredient listed by dry weight. Could you tell me what that starch consists of, and what purpose such a large inclusion rate of starch plays in a diet that according to Hikari was developed for BIG carnivorous fish?

Thanks!
Seems to me at the heart of the matter is the question of what the source of the "starch" is. From the Hikari rep answers I can deduce two things.

If the source was aquatic, it would have been stated both on the package and in this thread, as it would strengthen Hikari position. It is a no brainer.

If the source was terrestrial, any mention of it by Hikari in any shape or form, no matter how well explained and articulated, would be interpreted by most consumers, who can't help but hold simplistic views due to lack of education in the subject matter, as negative or rather negative or at least the consumers would be questioning this practice, which leads to doubt. This is to be avoided by any sensible company.

Most obviously, Hikari wants to be honest, so they don't state the origin is aquatic or some such, so it is NOT, so must be terrestrial (or a blend, to throw in more wrenches), but they don't want the prevailing ignorance to affect how their products are judged if they can help it, so they don't state the origin.

They may have developed a very special and proprietary processing procedure that may or may not indeed dramatically improve the properties of the said raw starch. This would be evident from the study of their patent portfolio, that is whether or not they have engaged into this field of special starch processing and whether their findings in it have been significant enough to be protected... or alternatively the findings might have been swept under a rug if leaving the competition clueless was deemed more sensible than protecting their proprietary processes for the next 20 years (all that patents can do).

In any case, I tend to agree in this respect with the Hikari rep - if we get good long term results with their feeds, at the end of the day this is all that matters. I can understand the possible beginner's frustrations trying to make a theoretical decision on what feed to go with but this appears to be a part of the growing pains... or just listen to the seasoned keepers :)

* * * * *

RD says himself he used and uses Hikari, so the Hikari hostility and accusations of him are rather unfounded, not to mention the rude and crude slander of him we have just witnessed in this very thread. He is not an NLS salesman anymore and even when he was, I believe he was one of the fairest because everything he does, he does so out of his best logic and objective understanding, based on mastery of the subject, not on blind faith in the product he used to sell and / or the financial gain he'd derive from touting his product and bad mouthing the competition. He is just above such objectionable mediocrity. Sure he's no saint and he's got his affiliations and his close friendship with Pablo is no secret but the guy displays a conscience too. Beautiful conscience and beautiful mind. Why can't some see it? IDK. He strikes me as an independent and well versed and educated in nutrition mind that makes his mind available and anyone who desires can use it to his or her advantage.
 

krichardson

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A bit late to the party,aye.
 

RD.

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Well thank you kind sir. I will add, it is common knowledge that terrestrial ingredients, such as soybean etc, are more digestible, and more easily assimilated by finfish, once processed under the heat/steam of extrusion. Not exactly proprietary information, as that rep would have everyone believe. But I agree in your overall assumptions on why there was silence on the part of the company.

Also, since the inception of this thread I have aged enough to no longer care nearly as much as I used to. lol
 
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Galantspeedz

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What I don't understand is if hikari even dare to list MSG as one of the ingredients then what is there to hide about starch unless it's really something proprietary or something that other fish food manufacturers did not thought of using as starch
 

RD.

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LOL, Hikari posted the following years ago. Nothing proprietary about it, and all of these ingredients have been used in various feeds for many years. It's not like Hikari invented the use of cassava starch (aka tapioca) , wheat starch, wheat flour, or potato starch, in fish food. I guess they found that these are necessary ingredients that our pets desire? lol



A Scientific Diet For Super-Sized Bottom Feeding Carnivorous Fish
FEATURES


Superior Benefits Over Live Foods: Specially developed for the needs of most carnivorous fish, without the potential for parasite or bacteria transfer common with live foods. Offers balanced nutrition with all the necessary ingredients your pet desires.

INGREDIENTS

Fish meal, krill meal, brewers dried yeast, cassava starch, soybean meal, wheat starch, fish oil, wheat flour, dried seaweed meal, spirulina, DL-methionine, potato starch, astaxanthin, L-lysine, canthaxanthin, garlic, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), inositol, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, red 3 (artificial color).
 
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RD.

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The price of corn is affected by, climate, crude oil prices, the ethanol market , Chinese demand, and the US dollar. A trade deal with China, or not, for soybeans can equate to a couple $$ hike per bushel. No manufacturer welcomes a trade war. Some of the basic grain commodities can be very volatile from one season, to the next, so searching for raw ingredients that are more stable, or cost effective, is common place among most manufacturers. If cassava/tapioca from Africa is cheaper than corn from America, well …..

And at the same time, a feed that is marketed for carnivores, probably promotes less questions/concerns from consumers when simply listed as starch, and not tapioca, soybean, and/or potato starch.


I’m sure that Hikari will tell you that the utilization of novel starch sources such as tapioca, and potato, was all based on science, and top secret proprietary information. :)
 

RD.

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One last thing that I forgot to mention, then hopefully this thread can be put to rest.

When a company uses generic names or terms on their labels, such as starch, it allows them to change up the specific type of starch over & over again if they so choose - without ever having to tweak the labels. For a large manufacturer making changes to a label can be very costly, so not something that they are ever wanting to do unless absolutely necessary.

HTH
 
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