actually i've read up quite a bit on the subject, and as it turns out feeding mice is not nearly as bad as what i've been told...he's very healthy, not obese in the slightest, no problems digesting anything ever, so for anyone who doesn't want to help, that's fine, i'll figure it out on my own...i think the mcdonald's metaphor is a little weak...i've been to two different, well respected vets who deal with reptiles who have given my pet a clean bill of health and told me that the mice are a much better choice than the crickets and mealworms that are comercially available and wild caught insects which could be eating foods containing pesticides or other harmful chemicals...anyhow, like i said, i'll just figure it out on my own, i certainly don't need the lectures
monitor enclosure....need some help
- Thread starter JeffLeMay
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Like I said to you before, he's healthy for now. If the opinions of two vets are the only sources you're using, then I say you need to research some more. So far the only literature I've found that supports all-rodent diets are caresheets from Petco. And we all know Petco is at the top of their game in the industry. Yessiree.
You've obviously made up your mind to kill your animal as slowly as possible, so I doubt there's anything else I can say to affect what little mind you have. But I'll repeat myself just because I care about reptiles that much.
I never said not to feed your sav mice at all (or wild insects, either), but I think 4 a week is too often. In the anapsid.org sites I posted (which I doubt you even bothered to click on since you know everything on savs), Mr Balsai pretty much says that savs do not have a mammalian metabolism, but most keepers feed them like they do. Overfeeding has always been an issue with this species, no matter what goes in their mouth. Know why? Because many times out of the year, the environment savs live in may experience droughts or floods that may last months at a time, making food scarce. So a sav's natural inclination is too gorge itself when the meals are there, because it may not find a meal for another few weeks. They exhibit this same behavior in captivity, but their owners simply mistake this for mere hunger and end up them feeding them more often than they should (people do this with fish, too). Thus, there are a lot of obese savs nowadays. And now, people think that an obese sav is a healthy sav, which it most certainly isn't.
I don't type out these lectures to act like a know-it-all or just argue for arguments' sake. I say all this becuase I care about animals, passionate about their well-being, and I know you, JeffLeMay, are wrong. It infruriates me that people like you totally do whatever the heck you want to your animals because that's what people thought 20 yrs ago. Guess what? Times have changed and we know a lot more about savs diet than we did then. But learning that new info requires too much work...like reading. It infruriates me even more that its not you that will suffer in the long run for your stupidity, but its your pet.
Whatever dude, its your pet though. At least consider taking it out back and shooting it in the head. Probably a more quicker and less agonizing death than wasting away in fatty tissue and liver/kidney failure.
You've obviously made up your mind to kill your animal as slowly as possible, so I doubt there's anything else I can say to affect what little mind you have. But I'll repeat myself just because I care about reptiles that much.
I never said not to feed your sav mice at all (or wild insects, either), but I think 4 a week is too often. In the anapsid.org sites I posted (which I doubt you even bothered to click on since you know everything on savs), Mr Balsai pretty much says that savs do not have a mammalian metabolism, but most keepers feed them like they do. Overfeeding has always been an issue with this species, no matter what goes in their mouth. Know why? Because many times out of the year, the environment savs live in may experience droughts or floods that may last months at a time, making food scarce. So a sav's natural inclination is too gorge itself when the meals are there, because it may not find a meal for another few weeks. They exhibit this same behavior in captivity, but their owners simply mistake this for mere hunger and end up them feeding them more often than they should (people do this with fish, too). Thus, there are a lot of obese savs nowadays. And now, people think that an obese sav is a healthy sav, which it most certainly isn't.
I don't type out these lectures to act like a know-it-all or just argue for arguments' sake. I say all this becuase I care about animals, passionate about their well-being, and I know you, JeffLeMay, are wrong. It infruriates me that people like you totally do whatever the heck you want to your animals because that's what people thought 20 yrs ago. Guess what? Times have changed and we know a lot more about savs diet than we did then. But learning that new info requires too much work...like reading. It infruriates me even more that its not you that will suffer in the long run for your stupidity, but its your pet.
Whatever dude, its your pet though. At least consider taking it out back and shooting it in the head. Probably a more quicker and less agonizing death than wasting away in fatty tissue and liver/kidney failure.
Well if you look closely, most of the sites are .com's. That means it is just personal experience. Your vet is wrong about saying that mice, in that quantity is good for your lizard. Captive bred insect like crickets, super worms, large cockroaches and those large green catapillars are far better for your lizard then rodents of any type. You will learn the hard way.
Z Trip;613519; said:Well if you look closely, most of the sites are .com's. That means it is just personal experience. Your vet is wrong about saying that mice, in that quantity is good for your lizard. You will learn the hard way.
Yep, his mistake and his monitor will .pay for it.
And personal experience is probably a little better than a vet who has probably never owned a reptile. I can't honestly speak for these two vets in question, but most "reptile" vets turn out knowing very little about herps.
by your logic, you shouldn't have any animals at all...nobody should. it isnt natural to put fish in aquariums or animals in cages either, but here all of us are, doing it anyway. and unless you can exactly duplicate the diet your animal would be getting in the wild, then we're all feeding improperly. but that's all good, get infuriated. and by the way, the vet has owned reptiles, savannahs in particular, all his life. anyway, no more defending myself. peace
JeffLeMay;613966; said:by your logic, you shouldn't have any animals at all...nobody should. it isnt natural to put fish in aquariums or animals in cages either, but here all of us are, doing it anyway. and unless you can exactly duplicate the diet your animal would be getting in the wild, then we're all feeding improperly.
So you're saying that if kept in captivity, we should feed our pets whatever we want? Sure we can change an animal's environment (i.e. placing it in a homemade cage instead of the African savannah), but we can't change its behavior. Guess what....a captive savannah monitor is going to feed in the same behavior as a wild one; its his instinct, or programming, or whatever you wanna call it. He's gonna act like savannah monitors have been acting for thousands (if not millions) of years. And although, we can never duplicate any pets diet in captivity, I think we should be responsible and try to similate it as much as we can. If your vets kept up with new information instead of relying on material over a decade old, they would know this. It's obvious that they do not. In fact, I wouldn't mind having their names (and email addresses...if they have any; if they're feeding you obsolete info, its entirely conceivable that they don't even own a computer) so I can discuss this matter with them myself.
The sad truth is that over 90% of savannah monitors in this country don't live past one year due to improper care.
The best source of information I have found on savannah monitor care was written by a feild biologist activley involved in monitor conservation, and a savannah breeder. The book is The Savannah Monitor Lizard - The truth about Varanus exanthematicus by Daniel Bennett and Ravi Thakoordyal
Do yourself and your varanid a favor and get this book, the proceeds support Daniel Bennett's conservation efforts.
Find it at http://www.mampam.com/
The best source of information I have found on savannah monitor care was written by a feild biologist activley involved in monitor conservation, and a savannah breeder. The book is The Savannah Monitor Lizard - The truth about Varanus exanthematicus by Daniel Bennett and Ravi Thakoordyal
Do yourself and your varanid a favor and get this book, the proceeds support Daniel Bennett's conservation efforts.
Find it at http://www.mampam.com/
