My Experience Mixing Tigrinus (& why not to do it) (dismissing the golden tigrinus)

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I'd really like to see some research done on tigs...
There's been a fair amount of study on the larger species and even B. platynemum, but basically nothing on tigrinum. Having spent some time among fishermen in the Peruvian Amazon, I can say there is a major fishery for the juveniles every year. Their export is banned from Brazil, but it's possible that basically all of the spawning occurs in the far upper Amazon, in which case the Peruvian harvest would be effectively drawing from the entire population. Also, unlike almost all the other Brachy species, it's only found in the Amazon basin.
 
I mean to document my adventures into this once they truly start! For the time being, that's being pretty severely hampered as I'm on well water that's effectively liquid limestone and I just can't seem to keep the jurs alive. The thread will be quite detailed However, as I mean to test if a supplemented juruense will develop the nice yellows seen in wild specimens.

I too am inclined to believe that there may be more going on in Brachyplatystoma than meets the eye, akin to Pseudoplatystoma. I strongly suspect that there are species complexes of fish that are effectively visually identical from one another, but which are genetically distinct. In the stripey species like tigs and jurs, this could easily explain regional variation such as with the unique patter of jur that *apparently* only comes from Rio Nanay.

That being said however, I realize that I may be reversing course on the old "if it walks like a jur and talks like a jur, it's a damn jur not a flash zebra" stance.

Eh, not really.

I still feel that's the case until we have some sort of proof that FZ and jurs are in fact two different things that can potentially be sorted into unique species, similar to the six unnamed species or subspecies of African tigerfish known to exist but which aren't yet named.

Once some bit of evidence becomes available, we can speculate away, but until then, we have to accept the available evidence and accept that all jurs are jurs and a flash is in the eye of the beholder.
I find the tiger part interesting..have these entered the hobby/ market yet? M
By tigerfish I presume you mean family, sp or very similar to the goliath, vittatus, etc family?
 
I am an say for certain that tigs and jurs are separate species. Besides the studies done through phylogenics and dna testing I have also prepared the skulls of both species. For how much they look alike on the outside their anatomy was a bit different inside although both follow the Atypical anatomy of the genus Brachyplatystoma.

Jurs for instance have a broader and thicker skull than tigs. Typically a bulkier animal at the same length as well.....usually.
I have noticed Juru do tend to be chunkier / thicker catfish to the tigs who typically stay thinner & sleeker.
 
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Thank you for this edifying thread.

I don't think the fact that your smaller tig stopped feeding in the new tank for a few weeks has only one explanation and that is that the bigger tig was bullying it. There easily could have been other reasons. We are so utterly helpless when our fish stop feeding or get sick - more often than not we have no clue why and usually only guess.

Chicx has been our authority on jurs and tigs, so I usually just listen to him, especially after he got all degreed up in biology :)

Perhaps I am off or outdated but my current belief is that jurs do not exceed 2 feet. The 4' claim on the Fishing World Records site is a case of mistaken ID, a bad lapse.

Jurs and tigs are for certain different species. Moreover, Chicx told us tigs are black fish with white markings while jurs are white fish with black markings, which carries consequences explaining why tigs stripes are so stable relative to the heavily evolving jur stripes.

This thread is the first time I hear of the "golden" variation in tigs. It smells fishy to me but time will tell, I hope. I just know the fish-keeping hobby and trade are on the leading edge of sellers pulling all sorts of tricks (and often hurting animals in the end result and giving PETA some grounds) to fool the buyers into buying "the new and the special"...
Sorry, I don’t think I maybe explained this, but they did both eat for a while. But the smaller tigrinus, due to what I can presume is fighting spent the majority of its time with me in the newer tank on the glass, in other tanks they both seemed normal but this tank, it was more water volume but less, in-effect, floorspace. The larger tig would swim up the glass, sit on the bottom, etc unlike the other who rarely touched the bottom after a short time, which led to it getting thinner, hence me moving to another tank, fattening it up & selling it on.
I personally think this is due to fighting/ bullying to each other, but like you said we rarely know. But the tig is now happy & eating in its new tank with the new owner looking amazing! No problems, diseases or anything else.
 
I'd really like to see some research done on tigs...
There's been a fair amount of study on the larger species and even B. platynemum, but basically nothing on tigrinum. Having spent some time among fishermen in the Peruvian Amazon, I can say there is a major fishery for the juveniles every year. Their export is banned from Brazil, but it's possible that basically all of the spawning occurs in the far upper Amazon, in which case the Peruvian harvest would be effectively drawing from the entire population. Also, unlike almost all the other Brachy species, it's only found in the Amazon basin.

I have noticed Juru do tend to be chunkier / thicker catfish to the tigs who typically stay thinner & sleeker.

I find the tiger part interesting..have these entered the hobby/ market yet? M
By tigerfish I presume you mean family, sp or very similar to the goliath, vittatus, etc family?

As with both of you, I'd love to see some more work with Brachyplatystoma. I'm particularly interested in the phylogeny of the group, especially following the work of Dr. Lundberg on the genus and how he split capapretum off of filamentosum. Finding specific morphological traits to validate the difference was evidently quite difficult, and was done with the shape and number of teeth.

Of course now, many of us in the hobby can look at young filas and capas and spot them instantly, but those differences could certainly fit within the range of genetic variability of one species, similar to what we're seeing with the variability in tigrinum or juruense. The possibility exists for sister species to exist within both of these species, forming a sister complex. This is what happened with the ATF; when a genetic diversity study was done, it was found that that there were three undescribed sister species or subspecies to VATF. The original VATF would be correctly referred to as H. vittatus sensu stricto, with the three VATF sister species/subspecies being referred to as H. vittatus sensu lato until such time as they're formally described and named. TATF was found to be an extremely closely related sister species to the vittatus complex, but just outside of it. It is a VATF complex species that underwent allopatric speciation to become something unique. The VATF species complex will eventually do the same if something should prevent them from being able to continue to swap genetic information.

FATF has the same species complex thing going on, with at least one undescribed species or subspecies. There was also a cryptic species unrelated to anything previously known found, but it is most closely affiliated to the VATF complex.

Due to finally acquiring firm and reliable location data for what we were calling in the hobby TATF, we now know they're from the lower Congo from the same waters as GATF. It is impossible for them to be TATF with this reality, so following fugupuff fugupuff 's naming convention, I ascribed the name big eye to them. I *strongly* suspect that this fish is the undescribed crypic species. I'm working on a description, which will name this fish Hydrocynus acutus. In the hobby we also have a VATF sensu lato species, which I refer to as H. cf. "stout vatf". It is in every way a VATF, and comes from VATF territory, but the scale counts are slightly off, they get a little bigger and they grow a little faster.

Without that genetic study, we'd never know of the mess that exists in Hydrocynus. The cryptic species, three sisters of VATF, at least one sister of FATF and more would all be completely unknown because they all *look* basically the same unless you're actively looking for differences that you know should be there due to genetics.

The same type of situation could easily exist within Brachyplatystoma, as is strongly inferred by Dr. Lundberg's definition of B. capapretum. I find this to be incredibly likely actually, given the high variability that we've seen in many species. The main issue that we'll run into however is how interconnected many of the rivers of South America are through the flood season, genetic drift may be difficult. There's also the issue of people not realizing the genetic diversity of things that are present, such as with the dorados (almost all the fish in the hobby are hybrids between franciscanus and brasiliensis due to farms mixing them and stocking them before it was clear they were different species; suppose I need to address that in that sticky, too).

All that is to say that it's possible that even if there was additional speciation within Brachyplatystoma, it is entirely possible that we may no longer be able to define it, only recognize that it once existed, due to anthropogenic meddling in the gene pool (accidentally or otherwise).

Apologies for rambling on, sometimes I just allow a line of thought to meander through my mind to see what grows like the Nile meanders through the desert.
 
As with both of you, I'd love to see some more work with Brachyplatystoma. I'm particularly interested in the phylogeny of the group, especially following the work of Dr. Lundberg on the genus and how he split capapretum off of filamentosum. Finding specific morphological traits to validate the difference was evidently quite difficult, and was done with the shape and number of teeth.

Of course now, many of us in the hobby can look at young filas and capas and spot them instantly, but those differences could certainly fit within the range of genetic variability of one species, similar to what we're seeing with the variability in tigrinum or juruense. The possibility exists for sister species to exist within both of these species, forming a sister complex. This is what happened with the ATF; when a genetic diversity study was done, it was found that that there were three undescribed sister species or subspecies to VATF. The original VATF would be correctly referred to as H. vittatus sensu stricto, with the three VATF sister species/subspecies being referred to as H. vittatus sensu lato until such time as they're formally described and named. TATF was found to be an extremely closely related sister species to the vittatus complex, but just outside of it. It is a VATF complex species that underwent allopatric speciation to become something unique. The VATF species complex will eventually do the same if something should prevent them from being able to continue to swap genetic information.

FATF has the same species complex thing going on, with at least one undescribed species or subspecies. There was also a cryptic species unrelated to anything previously known found, but it is most closely affiliated to the VATF complex.

Due to finally acquiring firm and reliable location data for what we were calling in the hobby TATF, we now know they're from the lower Congo from the same waters as GATF. It is impossible for them to be TATF with this reality, so following fugupuff fugupuff 's naming convention, I ascribed the name big eye to them. I *strongly* suspect that this fish is the undescribed crypic species. I'm working on a description, which will name this fish Hydrocynus acutus. In the hobby we also have a VATF sensu lato species, which I refer to as H. cf. "stout vatf". It is in every way a VATF, and comes from VATF territory, but the scale counts are slightly off, they get a little bigger and they grow a little faster.

Without that genetic study, we'd never know of the mess that exists in Hydrocynus. The cryptic species, three sisters of VATF, at least one sister of FATF and more would all be completely unknown because they all *look* basically the same unless you're actively looking for differences that you know should be there due to genetics.

The same type of situation could easily exist within Brachyplatystoma, as is strongly inferred by Dr. Lundberg's definition of B. capapretum. I find this to be incredibly likely actually, given the high variability that we've seen in many species. The main issue that we'll run into however is how interconnected many of the rivers of South America are through the flood season, genetic drift may be difficult. There's also the issue of people not realizing the genetic diversity of things that are present, such as with the dorados (almost all the fish in the hobby are hybrids between franciscanus and brasiliensis due to farms mixing them and stocking them before it was clear they were different species; suppose I need to address that in that sticky, too).

All that is to say that it's possible that even if there was additional speciation within Brachyplatystoma, it is entirely possible that we may no longer be able to define it, only recognize that it once existed, due to anthropogenic meddling in the gene pool (accidentally or otherwise).

Apologies for rambling on, sometimes I just allow a line of thought to meander through my mind to see what grows like the Nile meanders through the desert.
Not rambling at all, very interesting although I don’t understand/ am able to comprehend some of it, especially these other species of catfish in the same family being broken apart, I can definitely see similarities to the Polypterus gene reclassifications, where things such a Nile, PBB & Laperdi, are now all just classified into Laperdi because there are little-to-no differences between the wild specimens, hence I gave up on collecting the Bichir species as it became too complex going for every pre-classification species, not many Niles/ PBB were coming in, and the few that came in were just imported as captive bred sausages with square heads, short bodies, deformities, hybrids and much more. Hence selling off my collection.
As mentioned, I don’t know these other species you are mentioning within the Tigrinus family, but would love to see examples, threads of research, key differences, etc and would love to also see the ATF breakdown, I purchased a ”Vittatus”, which later people have stated is the FATF, but for all we know it could be the sister species of VATF, or possibly FATF. But rather than getting complex, for simples sake, I’ll call it an ATF, no sub species lol.
The ATF has been a family I stayed well away from at the beginning, and would you believe me if I said that was only 13 months ago..? I used to be scared of teeth, and for some reason even Datnoids scared me.... not now, I have 20 lol. Back on topic, I wanted a VATF, and chose avoid GATF, for the simple fact of size, the GATF is by far up there (tied) with VATF for visual appearance, but the VATF has always appealed more to me, maybe thanks to Jeremy Wade?? Who knows. Although I may not have the VATF I wanted, at least I have an African Tiger Fish. I’m only 18, with parents so limited to space, confined to what I can predict maybe 18x9foot room for my tanks, although some have straggled out into the next room... but I think if given the space & time, I’d certainly go for a GATF, to mix with my non-binary ATF I currently own. I did try mixing ATF also, these were 2 definite VATF, from Wharf Aquatics, however as I expected constant fighting. I then sold one off to a friend for his group of 5, who fought... didn’t want to imagine how he split the 5 up, & my other one died a week or so later from what I can only presume is stress, or damage from the previous VATF, or possibly the Peacock Bass growouts who were actually smaller than the ATF itself, but once only 1 was in the tank, became more boisterous with the VATF.
 
Not rambling at all, very interesting although I don’t understand/ am able to comprehend some of it, especially these other species of catfish in the same family being broken apart, I can definitely see similarities to the Polypterus gene reclassifications, where things such a Nile, PBB & Laperdi, are now all just classified into Laperdi because there are little-to-no differences between the wild specimens, hence I gave up on collecting the Bichir species as it became too complex going for every pre-classification species, not many Niles/ PBB were coming in, and the few that came in were just imported as captive bred sausages with square heads, short bodies, deformities, hybrids and much more. Hence selling off my collection.
As mentioned, I don’t know these other species you are mentioning within the Tigrinus family, but would love to see examples, threads of research, key differences, etc and would love to also see the ATF breakdown, I purchased a ”Vittatus”, which later people have stated is the FATF, but for all we know it could be the sister species of VATF, or possibly FATF. But rather than getting complex, for simples sake, I’ll call it an ATF, no sub species lol.
The ATF has been a family I stayed well away from at the beginning, and would you believe me if I said that was only 13 months ago..? I used to be scared of teeth, and for some reason even Datnoids scared me.... not now, I have 20 lol. Back on topic, I wanted a VATF, and chose avoid GATF, for the simple fact of size, the GATF is by far up there (tied) with VATF for visual appearance, but the VATF has always appealed more to me, maybe thanks to Jeremy Wade?? Who knows. Although I may not have the VATF I wanted, at least I have an African Tiger Fish. I’m only 18, with parents so limited to space, confined to what I can predict maybe 18x9foot room for my tanks, although some have straggled out into the next room... but I think if given the space & time, I’d certainly go for a GATF, to mix with my non-binary ATF I currently own. I did try mixing ATF also, these were 2 definite VATF, from Wharf Aquatics, however as I expected constant fighting. I then sold one off to a friend for his group of 5, who fought... didn’t want to imagine how he split the 5 up, & my other one died a week or so later from what I can only presume is stress, or damage from the previous VATF, or possibly the Peacock Bass growouts who were actually smaller than the ATF itself, but once only 1 was in the tank, became more boisterous with the VATF.

If you want to see the writeup on ATF, it can be found here:


As to your ATF, I can tell you what species it is if you're curious. Post in that section (Other Characins) about it and I'll sort you out. :)
 
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As with both of you, I'd love to see some more work with Brachyplatystoma. I'm particularly interested in the phylogeny of the group, especially following the work of Dr. Lundberg on the genus and how he split capapretum off of filamentosum. Finding specific morphological traits to validate the difference was evidently quite difficult, and was done with the shape and number of teeth.

Of course now, many of us in the hobby can look at young filas and capas and spot them instantly, but those differences could certainly fit within the range of genetic variability of one species, similar to what we're seeing with the variability in tigrinum or juruense. The possibility exists for sister species to exist within both of these species, forming a sister complex. This is what happened with the ATF; when a genetic diversity study was done, it was found that that there were three undescribed sister species or subspecies to VATF. The original VATF would be correctly referred to as H. vittatus sensu stricto, with the three VATF sister species/subspecies being referred to as H. vittatus sensu lato until such time as they're formally described and named. TATF was found to be an extremely closely related sister species to the vittatus complex, but just outside of it. It is a VATF complex species that underwent allopatric speciation to become something unique. The VATF species complex will eventually do the same if something should prevent them from being able to continue to swap genetic information.

FATF has the same species complex thing going on, with at least one undescribed species or subspecies. There was also a cryptic species unrelated to anything previously known found, but it is most closely affiliated to the VATF complex.

Due to finally acquiring firm and reliable location data for what we were calling in the hobby TATF, we now know they're from the lower Congo from the same waters as GATF. It is impossible for them to be TATF with this reality, so following fugupuff fugupuff 's naming convention, I ascribed the name big eye to them. I *strongly* suspect that this fish is the undescribed crypic species. I'm working on a description, which will name this fish Hydrocynus acutus. In the hobby we also have a VATF sensu lato species, which I refer to as H. cf. "stout vatf". It is in every way a VATF, and comes from VATF territory, but the scale counts are slightly off, they get a little bigger and they grow a little faster.

Without that genetic study, we'd never know of the mess that exists in Hydrocynus. The cryptic species, three sisters of VATF, at least one sister of FATF and more would all be completely unknown because they all *look* basically the same unless you're actively looking for differences that you know should be there due to genetics.

The same type of situation could easily exist within Brachyplatystoma, as is strongly inferred by Dr. Lundberg's definition of B. capapretum. I find this to be incredibly likely actually, given the high variability that we've seen in many species. The main issue that we'll run into however is how interconnected many of the rivers of South America are through the flood season, genetic drift may be difficult. There's also the issue of people not realizing the genetic diversity of things that are present, such as with the dorados (almost all the fish in the hobby are hybrids between franciscanus and brasiliensis due to farms mixing them and stocking them before it was clear they were different species; suppose I need to address that in that sticky, too).

All that is to say that it's possible that even if there was additional speciation within Brachyplatystoma, it is entirely possible that we may no longer be able to define it, only recognize that it once existed, due to anthropogenic meddling in the gene pool (accidentally or otherwise).

Apologies for rambling on, sometimes I just allow a line of thought to meander through my mind to see what grows like the Nile meanders through the desert.

Dr. Lundberg is the man haha. I use to pen pal with him all the time. I have wrote him in years. I should write him and pick his brain some more. I still have some very lengthy interesting emails from him
 
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Dr. Lundberg is the man haha. I use to pen pal with him all the time. I have wrote him in years. I should write him and pick his brain some more. I still have some very lengthy interesting emails from him

Outstanding!

If you'd like to collab with me on the upcoming Brachyplatystoma sticky, I'd love to have you brain that out with me. And, if you can get Dr. Lundberg on board to edit and review... ?
 
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Outstanding!

If you'd like to collab with me on the upcoming Brachyplatystoma sticky, I'd love to have you brain that out with me. And, if you can get Dr. Lundberg on board to edit and review... ?
Even though he is getting older he still works a hectic schedule and is one of the lead professors at his University in Pennsylvania. He always just responded in his own time. I have hundreds of emails and documents that he emailed me over the years. I will ask him and also any questions we might have. I do have the messages from back in the day when I asked him about differences in Capapretum and Filamentosum. He sent some of his work and a detailed explanation. He is always generous so you never know. I can't believe he has been doing this since the 1970s with frequent trips to the Amazon. Both describing fossil fish and modern species. I'd be happy to help however I can.
 
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