My unstable AT

[DaveB]

Came home from the weekend trip to a very unhappy looking silver. He's just cowering in a corner up against a rock. That had been his territory, inside the rocks, but now a catfish is there and he's behind them.

I've had him for months and he has had these tankmates the whole time, no new additions, though I did upgrade to a larger tank. It's warming up here though, so the tank temp is 83-84 now though, instead of the usual 82ish. Noone else seems bothered by it though. The smaller IT, who is usually the moody one, is fine (as you can see in the pics), but this guy wasn't even interested in his favorite krill on thursday before I left and is in much worse shape now.

I know with these guys time is usually the answer but this is more than just miscoloration - he's cowering like a submissive fish. He's usually one of the more dominant ones. Anything I should add/do to try to help him?

 

[haynchinook334]

is his poo white and slimie looking?

 

[pwmin]

I had a 4-lined pim (not sure what you have, but it looks like a pimelodid) kill a silver aro that was twice its size. You might want to think about getting rid of it as it probably took over the territory and the dat, most likely, will either sulk in the corner unstable or will find another spot.

 

[DaveB]

I actually had to look up what a pimelodid is. I have two pictus cats and while they have been known to eat tetra corpses when they were in another tank they've never been territorial or aggressive in the least in this tank. Unless it happens at night. I'll keep an eye on it. Usually he's over in the slate, it was actually the big ugly syno (that I would love to sell, except he's too ugly for anyone to want) that had been moving in on his territory.

And right now as I type this he (syno) is actually following the IT around very slowly, leading with one long whisker sort of tickling him.

This is very weird.

The IT is just sort of sideways floating to stay away from him, top fin spiked up, but not losing his color or anything.

So maybe it's this guy? I have no problem getting rid of him... I don't like him anyway. He outgrew the cichlid tank that he was in, which is why he's in with these guys.

(here's an older photo of him)

 

[DaveB]

I'm getting concerned about this guy. It has been three weeks now since he turned unhappy and he's still not himself. He had been getting a little better and more social but now he's back to super dark and afraid.

The reason for his hiding and cowering was that he had been harassed and lost a chunk of his right fin, but melafix dosing has helped restore that to about 90%. The offending Green Terror is gone from the tank (as is that syno, though for different reasons). He's still unstable and very dark though (the flash in the photos above make him look better than he really is) and he's just not very happy.

He used to be very aggressive at feeding time - he'd get almost all of the krill or shrimp, and one day I put in a dozen feeders and he got 7 of them. Now when I feed them he gets eager but then ends up being confused and misses out. It's almost as if he's farsighted - he knows I'm there, and he knows I'm feeding, but then he sometimes swims right over top of the stray krill pieces that he should be gulping up. He HAS eaten - several times he has gotten a piece of krill, but only one per feeding, and not every time. He has also gobbled bloodworms, which he promptly spits out (he only eats pink or live things, it seems).

He does go exploring occasionally, but spends most of his time in his cave. He's not leaning to one side anymore though, at least, but he's a long way from OK.

Anyone have any suggestions about what I might be able to do to help him along? Is it possible he has some kind of disease without obvious external symptoms? So far all I have been doing to help him have been water changes and semi daily melafix. All four of my other dats and all the other fish are happy. Any ideas?

That's him hiding in the cave watching the two happy dats outside (the cloudy eye is from the flash - his eyes are fine):

 

[Ade]

IT's are

 

[Ade]

IT's are usually the most unstable, on the flip side, when stable, are fabulous!

Sorry about your tiger, i know what its like. Here is a list of things I do try to stabiliseand make tigers feel more secure (generally in priority order):

Add more tigers (as many aspossible), they do better in swarms, induces competiton which induces strong bar colouration.
Add more hiding spaces.
Get rid of Syno (at that size some syno's are well aggressive, give it away if you have too)
30% water change at weekends and 20-25% waterchange on Wednesdays to keep average Nitrates down.
If your serious about diet and food, its hard, but only feed 1 food for 2-3 weeks. Or starve for 7 days or more, (literally NO food), then after this time, there is a high %, your tig will try anything. (I have found Lancefish, krill, bloodworm, worms and shrimp with shell (all frozen then defrosted) to be the best in terms of health and colourings for tigs)
Stop melafix, as your tig has no real signs of serious symtons of disease. Unless his fin gets fin rot, then I suggest putting him in nursery tank, then treating. Remember if you use medication, you have to remove carbon, ,so you lose effects carbon filtering, and Tigers need the VERY best water quality.
try differrent background, blue, green or black.


In summary, the above ponts have worked for me to some success, but I know of others, where different background doesn't make the tiniest bit if diffeene. Some tigers:
will just not stabilise
be stable at first, then suddenlylose stability
Be unstable, and gain stability and a later date.
Can be down to genetics.


Just remember, don't change to much too quickly. Treat each change individually and give each tinker/change time to have effect. not just a few days, but at least 2-3 weeks.




I bought an IT 5" , very stable for first 2 years, and unstable for last 2years. Its now 10", and i recently fed him lance fish firsttime yesterday. This morning, he has gone from dark brown, to almost very light
orangy cream colour. The black bars have still not not quite come through, but atleast its not black anymore. Could be a sign!!

 

[DaveB]

Wow, I've never seen a dat that looks like that. Thanks for your detailed response.

I removed the syno and put him back with the african cichlids where he had been. He had outgrown that tank but I upgraded them so now there's space for him again. I have had a listing to get rid of him for months, nobody wants him. (I wouldn't either - he's really ugly.) Anyway, the tank is perfectly peaceful now, though all the fish seem wary of the big lusosso just becaue of his size and tendency to randomly swim laps at top speed. I suppose there is a chance that he is the reason the AT is unhappy but I have never seen him pay any attention to any of the dats at all.

So really I have already done the first four items on the list (though my water changes are less frequent just because the nitrates have been staying pretty low on their own). As far as food, this guy is stubborn. I stopped feeding krill and feeders back when he was stable and he just didn't eat for three weeks. The new AT that I just got also seems much more picky about his food than the three ITs in the tank.

One thing that concerns me is that he spends most of his time clamping one of the two bottom fins in tight to his body. He doesn't clamp anything else and it has been fanned out, which shows me that it is not damaged. I wonder if this is a symptom of something else.

I guess if you have a dat that has been unstable for two years but still lives and eats that's encouraging. As is the fact that mine does eat sometimes. I can't imagine it's good for them long-term to be constantly stressed out though.

 

[DaveB]

I think he is getting beat up overnight. But I don't know by who. With the exception of the little dats that I just got, these are all the same fish he has always lived with.

 

[Ade]

Dave B, Sorry to hear no signs of improvement. I can assume your water parameters are good as yourother IT is looking excellent. You sound like someone who maintains their tank regularly.

I am left with 2 answers:
1) American tigers are amongst the hardest to get stable. Perhaps more so than Indo's. It may be down to genetics in whci case thers no answer. Time can tell, as my mate had a big IT like the one in my picture. It was ubstable for 2 years then when it got to 10inch, it's colours exploded, now it 12" of beautiful gold and black bars. !!! If you got big enough tank and some spare cash, buy MORE tigers; I have a 100G tank, with 8 Indos (9", 8", 7", 6", 6", 5", 4", 4") and 1 cambeli. Of the 8 Indoes, 3 are super stable, 3 are stable and 2 are unstable. The cambeli is always stable. WHen you buy, if you see a stable TIger in the tank, then BUY IT!! chances are it will retain stability. The increased competition really helps with their displaying colours.

2) The discotudus lususso, (is that the one on your avatar) is really nice! But They have hard beaks capable of some heavy damage. The last pic of your AT showed signs on the body of being bashed around. So, I would say it is more likely that that is bullying your tiger at night. It depends what fish you want more. Keep lussoo and movethe tiger or the otherway round.

If you want to keep both, just carry on doing what you are doing, add some more tigers and wait it out.

Good luck.. over there in Chicago.