Necropsy results

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jstavis

Candiru
MFK Member
Mar 18, 2009
222
1
48
Madison, WI
Since the previous thread ("My rays are all dying") had gotten to seven pages, I figured I'd start a new one.

I just received the preliminary results from the samples I brought to the lab. I've attached the report. I've managed to do a few minutes worth of research, but it turned up more questions than answers. I obviously need to contact the vet to figure out what this all means in practical terms. Also, since the results were marked "preliminary," I'm assuming that more tests are underway.

I'll update you guys when I figure out what this means, but I thought I'd throw it up here just in case someone has dealt with this before.Screen Shot 2013-01-10 at 5.56.jpg

Screen Shot 2013-01-10 at 5.56.jpg
 
From that it seems like a bacterial infection is the culprit. Problem is without signs such as cloudy eyes or redness it is hard to identify that before it is too late. Sucks but at least you have an answer. Question now is what can we all learn from this? Do we need to treat with antibiotics at the first sign of a problem?

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the wikipedia article is informative.

In pathology report, unless I misunderstand liver results, infection was confined to the gills. and interestingly= only moderate.
 
aeromonas = gramm negative bacteria commonly found in dirty fresh water= not good, indicating problems with water quality imo
 
This result sheet appears to be only for bacterial culture results of a gill scrape and a liver sample. What about a full blood biopsy? Also what about the culture from the intestines? I look forward to seeing the rest of the results as you did say this is only a preliminary result.
So far these results are inconclusive.
In what condition were the two rays delivered for autopsy? Frozen or preserved? If frozen, how quickly after occurrence of death were they frozen. I would expect moderate bacterial infection on the gills if not the whole ray to occur within a very short period of time(minutes to hours) after death.

It is really good to see someone taking the time to try and get a proper diagnosis.




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aeromonas = gramm negative bacteria commonly found in dirty fresh water= not good, indicating problems with water quality imo

True, but Aeromonas hydrophila will also thrive in an aerobic enviroment.
But it still could point to conditions.

Also I now remember seeing a picture of one of the dead rays out of the tank. So the bacterial infection is just as likely to be post mortem or secondary infection due to injury or weakness. In koi the majority of ulcer infections are caused by aeromonas bacteria on the biting mouthparts of parasites even as small as white spot causing secondary infection.

And on another note raised the above mentioned bacteria is pretty much immune to most available antibiotics so rushing in and treating will probably only compound the problem.



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Usually with necropsies etc where bacteria have been identified the same source will be able to tell you what will treat/kill the pathogen and what won't.
The question about 'fresh or frozen' above is also very important, as freezing destroys a lot of pathogens beyond ID .
Ideally the dead ray should have been kept in formalin and not frozen.
 
Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. Just a few clarifications:
1) Yes, the rays were brought in for necropsy after a week in the freezer. As many people have noted, it would be better if they hadn't been frozen. David mentioned formalin and one of the vets I talked to said that the ideal thing would be to refrigerate and get them to the lab ASAP. Unfortunately, this all happened right in the middle of the Christmas holiday when labs were closed and vets weren't responding to email. I also didn't have any formalin around.

Since the rays died, I've been in touch with a veritable who's who of Wisconsin state aquatic vets. I'm kind of kicking myself for not having even thought of these people's existence until things got bad.

I think there is a good lesson here for those of us who are keeping thousands of dollars worth of these fish: have a plan for what to do if one or more dies unexpectedly. Know what resources and experts are available to you and immediately refrigerate the specimens and get them into the lab ASAP.

2) There was some concern about bacteria taking root after the rays had died (i.e. when they were sitting dead in the tank). I'm pleased to report that this shouldn't be much of a problem. I was so obsessed with these rays while they were dying that both were removed and frozen less than three minutes after their last breath.

3) I'm still not sure what this tells me. Again, it's a preliminary culture, not a final report, so hopefully more details will emerge. But I also need to figure out if these findings merely suggest the presence of an endemic bacteria or a bona fide bacterial infection. (And if it's a bacterial infection was it the primary cause of death?)

4) When the first ray died (and before any others really started looking bad) I naively thought that it had swallowed a barb shed off by another ray. In order to confirm this I performed a "necropsy" with a Swiss Army Knife. The findings were as follows: stingrays are full of a substance known as "guts." They are pretty gross. And that is about all I learned. It was nasty and potentially dangerous and I wouldn't advise that anyone do that.

5) The other ray still seems ok. Knock on wood.

6) My best guess at this point is that we're going to find out that they succumbed to an endemic bacteria that caused problems due to other stresses. I'm willing to concede that I probably packed too many fish into this tank and that I need to be more modest when I restock and also get rid of most of the non-ray stock.
 
To much information is not always a good thing

Maybe its just a bit to deep for me


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