Need Advice.

[ehh]

A species is constantly evolving and changing to it's environment. If they are restricted to a 6'x2'x2' the offspring will stay smaller than the parent and try to evolve to their surroundings. An example where this is seen is in Bd's. When they were first introduced to the hobby it wasn't uncommon to see large females around the 25" mark, today most females only get 18" and I believe that aquaman45 has a mature 12" female. If you look back on his threads you notice that his marble breeders get smaller each thread.

As far as the Motoros get 2.5' that's not completely accurate for captive bred specimens. My male is 10" and fully rolled.

I don't buy this. This is my take on what you just said... If you raise a pair in a 180 and they don't reach potential they're probably stunted. And their young won't inherently remain small if they're kept in the same tank. They are probably stunted too. Unless, you take those young and allow them them to live out their natural lives in an environment that is much larger than the 180 and they grow to a much smaller size. Then there might be proof that they are significantly, inherently smaller based on the conditions that their parents were raised in.

You basically typed up a fancy "they grow to the size of the tank" argument.

 

[Thekid]

I don't buy this. This is my take on what you just said... If you raise a pair in a 180 and they don't reach potential they're probably stunted. And their young won't inherently remain small if they're kept in the same tank. They are probably stunted too. Unless, you take those young and allow them them to live out their natural lives in an environment that is much larger than the 180 and they grow to a much smaller size. Then there might be proof that they are significantly, inherently smaller based on the conditions that their parents were raised in.

You basically typed up a fancy "they grow to the size of the tank" argument.

moosemj or Fatlungy know how big your oldest pups are?

My ray was purchased from E Energy who I am willing to bet takes better care of fish than most aquarists on this site.

I consider what I said to be the exact opposite of what you said. If a fish continually gets smaller even with ample space it wouldn't grow to tank size, it wouldn't be growing to tank size.

Look at jim barry and his pup named Millie and then look at the tank size he has his breeders in.

aquaman45 doesn't have his breeders in a small tank either.

 

[Fatlungy]

I'm not sure about my oldest pups. Krich has two males from a year and half ago.

 

[moosemj]

I would guess about 1.5 years old and as far as I know maybe 11" is the biggest. However if he's talking marble those could be much smaller depending on the individual. One of my marble males is still much smaller than that and about the same age.

I wouldn't recommend going more than what you have right now unless you plan on moving them at some point. Long term you may have issues depending on the specimen.

 

[millerkid519]

I second that no.

For some context, I look at my 400 gallon with 3 adult rays and I quite often feel really bad for how little room they have. Females get massive my friend. I wish I could give them a tank 3 times the size, that would truly do them a bit more justice.

We can do that Dave.... lol

 

[THQ]

A species is constantly evolving and changing to it's environment. If they are restricted to a 6'x2'x2' the offspring will stay smaller than the parent and try to evolve to their surroundings. An example where this is seen is in Bd's. When they were first introduced to the hobby it wasn't uncommon to see large females around the 25" mark, today most females only get 18" and I believe that aquaman45 has a mature 12" female. If you look back on his threads you notice that his marble breeders get smaller each thread.

As far as the Motoros get 2.5' that's not completely accurate for captive bred specimens. My male is 10" and fully rolled.

I don't agree with this. Evolution does not work that way. Evolution works through spontaneous mutation of beneficial characteristics which confer an advantage to those that carry the mutation through the next few hundred generations. It would take thousands if not millions of years in complex multicellular organisms such as fish. A fish can't "evolve" to its surroundings. Its genetic potential for maximum size stays the same until evolution occurs. The only difference is its environment may limit its ability to reach that potential.

It is well documented that some fish, eg., clown loaches, secrete a hormone that limits their growth in dirty, cramped tanks. In this way, they can "adapt" to their surroundings. But it is nothing more than stunting - by which I mean their growth is less than what it could be.

To some extent, most aquarium fish are stunted in some way by being placed in an artificially small container. How can you grow to your maximum size if you aren't allowed to stretch your legs fully? This is why wild specimens are almost always larger. However, there is a certain "minimum" tank size cut off for each species where significant stunting occurs, to the point where they are smaller than what most would deem average max size in an aquarium setting.

This is why I suspect when new fish are introduced to the hobby, many of them are wild caught and thus larger. Over generations of only a few people breeding from the same original small gene pool, the fish gradually gets smaller, and are all aquarium raised rather than wild caught.

 

[Shishir Shetye]

Thanks for reply and advises.

My main tank is my biggest & its as specified is 6X2.5X2. so I decided & had given away 1 sting ray. Now just 2.. hope i will give them away too..

 

[Drstrangelove]

I don't agree with this. Evolution does not work that way. Evolution works through spontaneous mutation of beneficial characteristics which confer an advantage to those that carry the mutation through the next few hundred generations. It would take thousands if not millions of years in complex multicellular organisms such as fish. A fish can't "evolve" to its surroundings. Its genetic potential for maximum size stays the same until evolution occurs. The only difference is its environment may limit its ability to reach that potential.

Well said.