Need help, lost at this point… nitrites and expensive fish

[thebiggerthebetter]

I've read the thread so far. You are getting good advice.

What's your ammonia readings and pH and temperature? So we calculate harmful ammonia to make sure it is below threshold.

When you see nitrite, just add a 10x-100x excess (by ppm) of table salt or water softener salt. It is still a low conc of salt, shouldn't hurt your fish at all, especially short term.

10,000 GPH is a nice flow but make sure the water running through your filters is as highly oxygenated as possible. Don't just draw it from the bottom or worse from dead spots. It has to be vigorously oxygenated before entering your filters. It is equally important to having enough bio media! I repeat, the water entering your biofilter must be as highly oxygenated as possible and feasible and this is as important, if not more important, than the amount of available surface / bio media.

From my experience, I dont see any problems with feeding fish meat. I feed 20-40 lbs right now at a time into two of our 4500 gal tanks. Of course, they are filtered by an established 14K gal sump.

I admit I am ignorant. So all this talk from our esteemed colleagues above about protein in water column, films, chum slicks makes me uneasy and wanting to learn more on the subject, so I dont fall into this pit either. Or maybe it is just common sense. Anyhow, I'd like to know.

I believe you probably are just moving too quickly and getting too excited, ahead of yourself, typical of newbies, we have all done this, I have for sure. Patience is a virtue, especially in any hobby dealing with live pets. You cannot suddenly increase bioload = the amount of fish. Cycling is a relative term. You have been cycled to have a hundred guppies in your 2000 gal from the start. Doesn't mean you are cycled to have 10 lbs or more of live fish yet. It takes time and a gradual bioload increase and testing, vigilance, and understanding, troubleshooting, and problem solving.

Don't get disheartened. Folks above mean well. We are all rooting for yah.

Ask questions. If you don't get the answer, ask to explain.

Wet/dry (trickle) or shower filters slower to respond but can process high loads if biofilm doesn't restrict.

Thank you for this. I'd love to know more. Biofilm as in protein film, or a fat film, chum slick guys are mentioning? What's this biofilm? Beneficial bacteria are a biofilm themselves, no?

 

[Caveden]

thebiggerthebetter

a 4 foot wide tank is NOT enough. I would suggest 40k gallons at least. They get 10 feet.

It’s enough if they are 10”? It can probably last 1-2 years, and OP stated a 20000g was coming soon

 

[Ihatemyplatinumgar]

I've read the thread so far. You are getting good advice.

What's your ammonia readings and pH and temperature? So we calculate harmful ammonia to make sure it is below threshold.

When you see nitrite, just add a 10x-100x excess (by ppm) of table salt or water softener salt. It is still a low conc of salt, shouldn't hurt your fish at all, especially short term.

10,000 GPH is a nice flow but make sure the water running through your filters is as highly oxygenated as possible. Don't just draw it from the bottom or worse from dead spots. It has to be vigorously oxygenated before entering your filters. It is equally important to having enough bio media! I repeat, the water entering your biofilter must be as highly oxygenated as possible and feasible and this is as important, if not more important, than the amount of available surface / bio media.

From my experience, I dont see any problems with feeding fish meat. I feed 20-40 lbs right now at a time into two of our 4500 gal tanks. Of course, they are filtered by an established 14K gal sump.

I admit I am ignorant. So all this talk from our esteemed colleagues above about protein in water column, films, chum slicks makes me uneasy and wanting to learn more on the subject, so I dont fall into this pit either. Or maybe it is just common sense. Anyhow, I'd like to know.

I believe you probably are just moving too quickly and getting too excited, ahead of yourself, typical of newbies, we have all done this, I have for sure. Patience is a virtue, especially in any hobby dealing with live pets. You cannot suddenly increase bioload = the amount of fish. Cycling is a relative term. You have been cycled to have a hundred guppies in your 2000 gal from the start. Doesn't mean you are cycled to have 10 lbs or more of live fish yet. It takes time and a gradual bioload increase and testing, vigilance, and understanding, troubleshooting, and problem solving.

Don't get disheartened. Folks above mean well. We are all rooting for yah.

Ask questions. If you don't get the answer, ask to explain.


Thank you for this. I'd love to know more. Biofilm as in protein film, or a fat film, chum slick guys are mentioning? What's this biofilm? Beneficial bacteria are a biofilm themselves, no?

actually watching your YT channel is a huge reason I’ve gotten so many of these fish, I don’t know how you maintain all that you do.The pool pond has 2 huge air stones rated for up to 2000 gallons, ph sits around 7-7.2 and temperature hovers around 80 ammonia is generally 0 although sometimes goes to 0.25ppm nitrites went from 2.0 to 0 within 12 hours I don’t know how often you have to check your parameters, also, how often are you feeding? I don’t really ever have a huge nitrite spike like that which is why it’s so concerning. 1 filter is 3 months old and 1 just under a month. Both were set up to handle thresholds of much larger than this one

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Thank you for paying attention to our humble channel.

Then we have no reason to worry about the ammonia at all.

I'd suggest measuring ammonia and nitrite every day for young systems until both will have read firmly zero for a month, and from then weekly, then monthly, then per need. At the first sign of anything unusual in behavior and appetite, measure all your parameters always immediately. This is the first thing to be done before anything else. For ammonia at low concentrations like 0.25 ppm, I'd suggest using a test tube of ammonia free water + reagents as a reference to compare the color against, not the paper chart.

It is highly advisable to have the GH and KH liquid API tests and know these numbers. (I hope your ammonia and nitrite tests are liquid, not sticks).

Please remember the gradual bioload increase advice, especially on a young, just set up system like yours, but really on any system.

Overall your setup sounds quite reasonable to me, I dont see red flags. It's just young and you likely increased the bioload too quickly, is all. It'd be nice if the water entering your bin filters was in a good, prolonged contact with air, like a shower or a stream, before it hits your biomedia, so it absorbs more oxygen and outgasses more CO2.

Rule of thumb in feeding - feed until the tummy is full. Wait until flat. Feed again. This is for occasional feeders. For constant feeders, one can go by an estimated stomach size and there are recommendations on the web too.

It is always much, much, much better to underfeed than to overfeed but with so many hard predators housed together, it is often not feasible or even impossible. You don't want hunger-provoked attacks because these cut life span short much quicker than any overfeeding. Ideally of course you dont want to overfeed either but rather feed just the right amount. It can come with experience, observation, and learning.

 

[fishdance]

2 ppm nitrite is not life threatening but it may have been 20 ppm a day before.

Even if your filter is mature, it may not handle suddenly adding a large fish or heavy feeds depending on filtration method and all your fish will get much larger quite quickly.

Some filters handle sudden loads better. Look up a fluid sand filter but these take many months to establish properly.

Wet/dry trickles efficiently process ammonia and nitrite but suffer from water channelling and bio film buildup so degrade over time. You can improve by sealing the sides and adding counter current air at the bottom. It's slow to ramp up to sudden loads however but recovers quickly if dried out. Very efficient filters remove a lot of dissolved oxygen and may need a regassing stage.

A shower filter is similar to wet/dry but due to the enormous water flow, doesn't suffer from bio film buildup or oxygen loss. Maintaining essential high flow all the time can be a risk.

Moving bed filters (bio film reactors) are more complex than simple bacterial nitrification but would work well. Because the media circulates, you get multiple filtration passes per single pass of water through the filter. I have 3 x 55 gallon barrels of MBBR that effectively replace 4 x 330 gallon IBC totes of submerged larva rock and much easier to clean.

It's too complex a topic to discuss I'm a thread and unfortunately I don't have much time. If you want a recommendation without going into why, I would use a 5 litre sand fluid filter as backup and consider a thick gravel substrate layer as flow through undergravel filter on top of your 2 x 44 gallon brute containers.

You do need to get on top of your current issues and future plan now.

The fluid sand filter should be in the tank itself, not depending on water flow through it. Similarly the gravel filter should be in the tank.

A shower filter is not as efficient but since the flow through is so huge, the inefficiencies don't matter. Similarly MBBR filters.

 

[Ihatemyplatinumgar]

Forgot to mention the fluid sand filter should be in the tank itself, not depending on water flow through it. Similarly the gravel filter should be in the tank.

A shower filter is not as efficient but since the flow through is so huge, the inefficiencies don't matter. Similarly MBBR filters.

my current filtration are 2 44 gallon brutes, the pvc piping is 2” and enters through the top lid of the Trash can where it’s connected to a t piece of pvc with smaller cut pvc on each end with end caps and hundreds of drilled holes through each pipe. So it’s a showering effect. It sits about 2-3” above mechanical filtration which then trickles down into the pot scrubbers and then lava rock. Both trash cans are stacked full and cannot fit any thing else in them. 2400gph pump to one and 8000gph to the other

I will be loving them to a 10,000 gallon after it cycles, I do plan to add more fish when this is consistently at 0 and I may add another trash can filter so I can look into the sand filter and get it started

 

[Ihatemyplatinumgar]

Thank you for paying attention to our humble channel.

Then we have no reason to worry about the ammonia at all.

I'd suggest measuring ammonia and nitrite every day for young systems until both will have read firmly zero for a month, and from then weekly, then monthly, then per need. At the first sign of anything unusual in behavior and appetite, measure all your parameters always immediately. This is the first thing to be done before anything else. For ammonia at low concentrations like 0.25 ppm, I'd suggest using a test tube of ammonia free water + reagents as a reference to compare the color against, not the paper chart.

It is highly advisable to have the GH and KH liquid API tests and know these numbers. (I hope your ammonia and nitrite tests are liquid, not sticks).

Please remember the gradual bioload increase advice, especially on a young, just set up system like yours, but really on any system.

Overall your setup sounds quite reasonable to me, I dont see red flags. It's just young and you likely increased the bioload too quickly, is all. It'd be nice if the water entering your bin filters was in a good, prolonged contact with air, like a shower or a stream, before it hits your biomedia, so it absorbs more oxygen and outgasses more CO2.

Rule of thumb in feeding - feed until the tummy is full. Wait until flat. Feed again. This is for occasional feeders. For constant feeders, one can go by an estimated stomach size and there are recommendations on the web too.

It is always much, much, much better to underfeed than to overfeed but with so many hard predators housed together, it is often not feasible or even impossible. You don't want hunger-provoked attacks because these cut life span short much quicker than any overfeeding. Ideally of course you dont want to overfeed either but rather feed just the right amount. It can come with experience, observation, and learning.

it is a shower effect about 2-3” above mechanical filtration and then 5” above bio media, a lot of flow coming out of the pipes through hundreds of drilled holes

I see your 4500 gallon, so many fish. You said it has a 14000 gallon sump? 3x the size of the actual body the fish are in? What’s the footprint on that?

how many fish can I add to a 10,000? Before it’s overcrowded?

also so what you’re saying is if there is any nitrite ever the pond or aquarium is not completely cycled? And you should only change because of nitrates afterwards?

really appreciate your advice

 

[fishdance]

Yes, that's part of your problem. 2 x 44 gallon brute containers is not a lot of filtration especially with scrubbers. Why not double the barrels at least until you get something better? Your confusing showering down water with a shower filter. Have a look at a true shower filter for comparison.

If you only want 2 x brute containers, I would fill them both with larva rock and create fill & flush filters. So they gradually fill up with water then suddenly dump back into the tank. Essentially wave / surge tanks. So all the media surface is used without channeling and all the air voids are totally - guaranteed replenished each cycle, not to mention hugely oxygenating the tank each dump.

Anyway, I'm sure you will work out the best filter for your needs.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

F fishdance

FD: 2 ppm nitrite is not life threatening but it may have been 20 ppm a day before.
V: Thank you for this. I thought from my experience that 2 ppm nitrite over a few days will lead to bad stress, ensuing illness, and then deaths, maybe not 100% wipe out but say 10%-25% mortality on average.

FD: Wet/dry trickles efficiently process ammonia and nitrite but suffer from water channelling and bio film buildup so degrade over time.
V: Oh I think I gotcha; forget my last question, this answers it probably. Wet/dry is really a trickle flow, so a significant portion of filter remains idling or dry, just moist. I guess I thought ignorantly that shower = wet/dry. Like you say, it doesn't.

FD: Very efficient filters remove a lot of dissolved oxygen and may need a regassing stage.
V: Right. Sensible. That's common sense that hadn't come to me haha...

FD: A shower filter is similar to wet/dry but due to the enormous water flow, doesn't suffer from bio film buildup or oxygen loss. Maintaining essential high flow all the time can be a risk.
V: That's then our 8ft x 4ft x 6 ft tall filter for the 25K with 10,000 scrubbers and 30K-60K GPH flow.

FD: It's too complex a topic to discuss in a thread and unfortunately I don't have much time.
V: Do you have your own write-up on the topic or know of one / can point that serves it on a platter for dummies? I've no expectations of the timeliness or a lack thereof of your answer. We appreciate every droplet of wisdom you rain on us.

FD: If you want a recommendation without going into why, I would use a 5 litre sand fluid filter as backup and consider a thick gravel substrate layer as flow through undergravel filter on top of your 2 x 44 gallon brute containers.
V: By saying "on top" FD, as I read it, means in addition to.

FD: The fluid sand filter should be in the tank itself, not depending on water flow through it. Similarly the gravel filter should be in the tank.
V: How are the filters filtering without flow? Or you probably are saying this is wise to avoid drying up / drainage and the slow restart... The only fluid sand filters I've ever seen in person were outside the tanks. Aren't they the same in principle as moving media filters where sand is moving instead of the plastic balls?

FD: A shower filter is not as efficient but since the flow through is so huge, the inefficiencies don't matter. Similarly MBBR filters.
V: You mean that the contact time is similarly high for the shower filter and moving media filter / fluid sand filter, I am guessing.

FD: Yes, that's part of your problem. 2 x 44 gallon brute containers is not a lot of filtration especially with scrubbers. Why not double the barrels at least until you get something better?
V: Really? 60 gallons of scrubbers plus mats for the current total of 10-20 lbs of fish mass in the tank? Or are you thinking about the future? I'd naively say if the water is well oxygenated going in, which sounds like it is okay, that could be enough for a 100 lbs of fish. I agree that the fish, if they thrive, will reach 100 lbs in several months / half a year.

FD: Your confusing showering down water with a shower filter. Have a look at a true shower filter for comparison.
V: Perhaps I am too. The only difference, and it is a crucial difference, is that in the shower design the water on its way down rains through air as much as through the trays with the media.

FD: If you only want 2 x brute containers, I would fill them both with larva rock and create fill & flush filters. So they gradually fill up with water then suddenly dump back into the tank. Essentially wave / surge tanks. So all the media surface is used without channeling and all the air voids are totally - guaranteed replenished each cycle, not to mention hugely oxygenating the tank each dump.
V: I've tried exactly what you are proposing, a part time siphon design 10 years ago. The seasoned colleagues on PCF were not impressed and decided it's less efficient versus a straight forward flow-through mode of operation: https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30141 One obvious tradeoff is that most of the media is in contact with water only part time vs flow-through where most of the media is in contact with water full time. It seems to be a tossup afterall.

I Ihatemyplatinumgar

IHMPG: It sits about 2-3” above mechanical filtration... it is a shower effect about 2-3” above mechanical filtration and then 5” above bio media, a lot of flow coming out of the pipes through hundreds of drilled holes
V: Is the top open to air? Can the air move around the top, around the showerheads? If it is lidded or the space is closed off, it would strongly reduce aeration of the showering water. A lid would stifle it effectively.

IHMPG: I see your 4500 gallon, so many fish. You said it has a 14000 gallon sump? 3x the size of the actual body the fish are in? What’s the footprint on that?
V: The sump is 20x20x7ft and now runs two 4500 and one 1800 with a 10,000 gal planned to attach to it.

IHMPG: how many fish can I add to a 10,000? Before it’s overcrowded?
V: 1 cubic inch per gallon? the rule of thumb for the max (max doesn't equal recommended). It's a layered question. Before it is lethally stressful for the fish to be around too many other fish, never having rest? Or before you can't manage ammonia and nitrite?

IHMPG: also so what you’re saying is if there is any nitrite ever the pond or aquarium is not completely cycled?
V: In a properly run tank, the ammonia and nitrite reading MUST be firmly at zero ppm by a home liquid API kit at all times. If at any time there is any nonzero reading, that means you are not cycled or the bioload exceeds the theoretical biofiltering capacity.

IHMPG: And you should only change because of nitrates afterwards?
V: Change what? Water? WC takes out everything; in a properly run tank WC prevents dangerous accumulation of nitrate, sodium, potassium, chloride, other nitrous, sulfurous, phosphorus chemicals, fish hormones, biological waste, heavy metals, etc. If you have a problem with ammonia and nitrite, a WC takes those out too.