New 210 build
- Thread starter Philter1
- Start date
The concentration in the air is about 350-400 ppm, which is low compared to other gases but still high compared to the concentration in the water in a heavily-planted tank (I know, ppm in air and ppm in water are not directly comparable, but I haven't found a better comparison yet)- so, aeration will increase the speed of diffusion of CO2 from air to water.
If the tank is lightly planted and heavily stocked, respiration by fish and bacteria may put CO2 levels in the tank water near or above atmospheric levels, and so aeration won't much help the CO2 situation. Of course in this case the more important function of aeration is to add O2 to the water.
If the tank is CO2 injected, CO2 levels in the water are already above atmospheric concentrations and aeration will speed diffusion from water to air.
So in sum,
No CO2 injection, lightly planted, heavily stocked - aeration is good (for the animals)
No CO2 injection, heavily planted, lightly stocked or unstocked - aeration is good (for the plants)
CO2 injection - aeration is bad (for the plants)
If the tank is lightly planted and heavily stocked, respiration by fish and bacteria may put CO2 levels in the tank water near or above atmospheric levels, and so aeration won't much help the CO2 situation. Of course in this case the more important function of aeration is to add O2 to the water.
If the tank is CO2 injected, CO2 levels in the water are already above atmospheric concentrations and aeration will speed diffusion from water to air.
So in sum,
No CO2 injection, lightly planted, heavily stocked - aeration is good (for the animals)
No CO2 injection, heavily planted, lightly stocked or unstocked - aeration is good (for the plants)
CO2 injection - aeration is bad (for the plants)
Thanks for the responses 
After I read the posts a few times I've come away with 2 thoughts; I asked some more complex questions that I realized and the generally speaking posters thoughts are, "it will work but....". So I've begun to dig deeper into the issues presented so that I can be more educated. It's all your fault that my head hurts now!!
Full of new knowledge and a better undestanding, but certainly not complete, I will trudge forward here with a couple of questions.
My surprise read of the night was on water movement. I did not realize, even from all the posts I've read here, how important water flow is to these systems. I mean you see all these beautiful tanks and not one thing is moving. it's a pic in most cases, lol, but do the pumps get turned off for the camera? (is this a "duh" moment?) This leads to my question on the importance of breaking the viscosity of the Plandlt layer to prevent CO2 deprivation. Is this a real issue or more fictional?
Noto or FSM-is there such a thing as no injection-heavily planted and stocked? I read some comments on system respiration and wonder how much a heavily stocked tank can contribute to CO2 levels. The article mentioned food as being one the largest sources of carbon in the water column. This seems to imply overfeeding is a good thing, to a point, or is it talking more about the source being fish waste from the food it ingests? (it also mentioned plant detritus)
FSM-what do you think would be appropriate lighting for this tank? Would SHO be a better option?
Pharoah--good point. My problem will be the head pressure on my Fluval 405's. they have a 4' max height and I will not be much below this so water flow will be minimal from them. i'm not too excited about digging in my pockets for a couple of new fluval 5 series or the Eheims. I will need to test this.
After I read the posts a few times I've come away with 2 thoughts; I asked some more complex questions that I realized and the generally speaking posters thoughts are, "it will work but....". So I've begun to dig deeper into the issues presented so that I can be more educated. It's all your fault that my head hurts now!!
Full of new knowledge and a better undestanding, but certainly not complete, I will trudge forward here with a couple of questions.
My surprise read of the night was on water movement. I did not realize, even from all the posts I've read here, how important water flow is to these systems. I mean you see all these beautiful tanks and not one thing is moving. it's a pic in most cases, lol, but do the pumps get turned off for the camera? (is this a "duh" moment?) This leads to my question on the importance of breaking the viscosity of the Plandlt layer to prevent CO2 deprivation. Is this a real issue or more fictional?
Noto or FSM-is there such a thing as no injection-heavily planted and stocked? I read some comments on system respiration and wonder how much a heavily stocked tank can contribute to CO2 levels. The article mentioned food as being one the largest sources of carbon in the water column. This seems to imply overfeeding is a good thing, to a point, or is it talking more about the source being fish waste from the food it ingests? (it also mentioned plant detritus)
FSM-what do you think would be appropriate lighting for this tank? Would SHO be a better option?
Pharoah--good point. My problem will be the head pressure on my Fluval 405's. they have a 4' max height and I will not be much below this so water flow will be minimal from them. i'm not too excited about digging in my pockets for a couple of new fluval 5 series or the Eheims. I will need to test this.
Philter1;3398676; said:
Plumbing them through the bulkheads would be the same as hanging the lines on the back of the tank. You should have too many problems with head height other than what would be cause by inadequate filtration as a whole.
A few things to think about:
The Prandlt layer is a real issue, but it takes just a little water movement to break it up. If you can see the plants moving at all, you're probably all right. Massive flow is counterproductive in most cases.
Overstocking or overfeeding to increase CO2 production is likely to cause issues such as nitrogenous waste buildup at night (unless you have a bacterial filter, in which case lack of nitrogenous waste will be your problem). A lightly stocked, heavily planted tank with no bacterial filter is the best setup for both plant and animal health.
As a corollary to this, CO2 is seldom the limiting factor in plant growth. Really, don't worry too much about CO2 levels. Unless your tank is stagnant, has very high pH, or is massively overfertilized, you will have as much CO2 as your plants can use. Finding the best balance between nitrogen, phosphorus, CO2, trace elements, and light is the way to best growth.
Maximizing plant growth is not necessarily the best way to achieve the look you want. Plants that grow very rapidly are likely to be leggy or coarse in appearance and will require frequent pruning. Letting the plants grow more slowly may take longer to achieve the full, "garden" effect, but it will be worthwhile.
The Prandlt layer is a real issue, but it takes just a little water movement to break it up. If you can see the plants moving at all, you're probably all right. Massive flow is counterproductive in most cases.
Overstocking or overfeeding to increase CO2 production is likely to cause issues such as nitrogenous waste buildup at night (unless you have a bacterial filter, in which case lack of nitrogenous waste will be your problem). A lightly stocked, heavily planted tank with no bacterial filter is the best setup for both plant and animal health.
As a corollary to this, CO2 is seldom the limiting factor in plant growth. Really, don't worry too much about CO2 levels. Unless your tank is stagnant, has very high pH, or is massively overfertilized, you will have as much CO2 as your plants can use. Finding the best balance between nitrogen, phosphorus, CO2, trace elements, and light is the way to best growth.
Maximizing plant growth is not necessarily the best way to achieve the look you want. Plants that grow very rapidly are likely to be leggy or coarse in appearance and will require frequent pruning. Letting the plants grow more slowly may take longer to achieve the full, "garden" effect, but it will be worthwhile.
"Plumbing them through the bulkheads would be the same as hanging the lines on the back of the tank. You should have too many problems with head height other than what would be cause by inadequate filtration as a whole."
With low water flow this is exactly my concern. It will about 43" from top of canister to the highest point of the return pipe so the amount of flow is going to be reduced significantly. I know that the tank will in large part filter itself but clearing floating debris and having that polished look is important.
"As a corollary to this, CO2 is seldom the limiting factor in plant growth. Really, don't worry too much about CO2 levels. Unless your tank is stagnant, has very high pH, or is massively overfertilized, you will have as much CO2 as your plants can use. Finding the best balance between nitrogen, phosphorus, CO2, trace elements, and light is the way to best growth.
Maximizing plant growth is not necessarily the best way to achieve the look you want. Plants that grow very rapidly are likely to be leggy or coarse in appearance and will require frequent pruning. Letting the plants grow more slowly may take longer to achieve the full, "garden" effect, but it will be worthwhile. "
You stated the exact reason for my resistance to CO2. I know there are systems that need CO2 and mine may eventually get to that point but my thought from the beginning of this project was it was not a necessary item. Learn how my tank functions, hone my husbandry skills and then bring in the CO2 if necessary.
I have spent hours reading on line in the past couple of days, last night especially. (I was bad and stayed up 3 hours past my bed time so getting up for work was a bit rough this morning ) It was well worth the time however as I focused some time on the lighting. Unless I get some strong feedback to the contrary I've decided that SHO-CFL's are the way to go on this tank. 4-105w bulbs and an actinic T5 to round out the color rendering should be about right.
Does anyone do LED's for the moonglow effect on these tanks?
With low water flow this is exactly my concern. It will about 43" from top of canister to the highest point of the return pipe so the amount of flow is going to be reduced significantly. I know that the tank will in large part filter itself but clearing floating debris and having that polished look is important.
"As a corollary to this, CO2 is seldom the limiting factor in plant growth. Really, don't worry too much about CO2 levels. Unless your tank is stagnant, has very high pH, or is massively overfertilized, you will have as much CO2 as your plants can use. Finding the best balance between nitrogen, phosphorus, CO2, trace elements, and light is the way to best growth.
Maximizing plant growth is not necessarily the best way to achieve the look you want. Plants that grow very rapidly are likely to be leggy or coarse in appearance and will require frequent pruning. Letting the plants grow more slowly may take longer to achieve the full, "garden" effect, but it will be worthwhile. "
You stated the exact reason for my resistance to CO2. I know there are systems that need CO2 and mine may eventually get to that point but my thought from the beginning of this project was it was not a necessary item. Learn how my tank functions, hone my husbandry skills and then bring in the CO2 if necessary.
I have spent hours reading on line in the past couple of days, last night especially. (I was bad and stayed up 3 hours past my bed time so getting up for work was a bit rough this morning
) It was well worth the time however as I focused some time on the lighting. Unless I get some strong feedback to the contrary I've decided that SHO-CFL's are the way to go on this tank. 4-105w bulbs and an actinic T5 to round out the color rendering should be about right.Does anyone do LED's for the moonglow effect on these tanks?
Philter1;3401126; said:
What I meant by that is that the only issue you will have with low flow rates if having a filter that is not big enough to support the tank. You would not even notice a difference whether or not it is plumbed through the bulkheads or over the side of the tank.
Well what started off as an exciting new project has once again been delayed. A bad storm blew through my neighborhood 2 nights ago and a 60' tree fell on my house. At first it appeared to be minor damage (I was feeling darn lucky) but I came home today to a kitchen ceiling and walls showing water damage. My relatively small claim has just turned into a major one. New roof, new ceiling in the kitchen, possibly some new walls (and of course there are cabinets there) Paid the tree guys $2000 to remove the tree today, can't wait to see what there rest will be now.
I guess I will be living be living vicariously through the post's and pic's of all your wonderful tanks here on MFK for a few months more!! Keep 'em coming!!
I guess I will be living be living vicariously through the post's and pic's of all your wonderful tanks here on MFK for a few months more!! Keep 'em coming!!
