Nutrition Sticky

[FLESHY]

Hey everyone - posted this response to the nutrition sticky, I feel its worth some discussion.

After 24 hours, Im reposting it here:

Okay guys, a few thoughts after having gone through this whole thread.

1. I am the maker of a saltwater fish food that I use(d) for all my own fish and that many people have tried to duplicate after trying it.

2. I have always been aware of the thiaminase issue - but never done much to steer clear of it, minus avoiding cyprinids in any diet.

The list of fish and animals (especially feeding SW preds) that contain thiaminase is staggering.

Here is a good link (sorry it takes you off site, maybe we can re collab it here and edit the sticky?) for everything you might even consider feeding and whether or not it contains thiaminase:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm

With that being said - Id like to point out that in feeding pellets (mainly fish meal) that the chances of giving your fish a high thiamine food (most fish meal is made from cyprinids, clupeids, and other families that have members that contain thiaminase) seems likely. Other quality brands (like the NLS that I always use and recommend) contain krill as the number one ingredient which also contains thiaminase and is not recommended to feed.

Now Im confused. Pellets #1 ingredient in my mind most likely contains it - possibly even from families of fish that contain high levels of thiaminase.

I think there is something going on here that we are all missing - and I intend on breaching this subject with professors and colleagues at the university that I attend/work for.

Let me know your thoughts on what I just said - I have always used shrimp as a staple for FW Preds to SW - and now Im confused.

Side note - my new P's are feeding just fine on different frozen cubes and today (for the first and only time thus far, finely chopped table shrimp).

Would love to get them onto massivore, but even though I have loaded the tank with dithers to teach them what to eat they do not seem too interested in NLS.

Heres a link to the original post: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...iranha-Nutrition-Thread&p=6429726#post6429726

Let me know what everyone thinks...Im not trying to be a devil's advocate, I just think these are legitamate points that should be discussed so we can reach a conclusion on what actually is good/acceptable feed for our P's.

 

[FLESHY]

Bump...I honestly cant believe that no one has anything to say on this.

Seems like a pretty big discrepancy...everyone is worried about feeding this stuff to their fish, and then condoning the feeding of pelletized food made from the same stuff.

Cooking does apparently reduce the effect, but still.

What really are we doing?

 

[Sm0ke]

Bump...I honestly cant believe that no one has anything to say on this.

Seems like a pretty big discrepancy...everyone is worried about feeding this stuff to their fish, and then condoning the feeding of pelletized food made from the same stuff.

Cooking does apparently reduce the effect, but still.

What really are we doing?

Hey Fleshy. I read your post but not sure if I get the point you're trying to deliver. Are you saying that by feeding pellets, which contain thiaminase, we are essentially dosing our fish with an unwanted substance?

I think that's an interesting thing to consider. Luckily, I don't feed my prized fish pellets so I'll never have to worry there. Hopefully no pellet fanatic strolls by and starts flaming me for that, I'd like to steer clear from any pellet debates if at all possible.

 

[FLESHY]

Ive had great results with NLS - but if we are really trying to avoid thiaminase...why are we feeding them foods that are mainly things that contain thiaminase?

Just looks like there is no way around it...

 

[FLESHY]

Bump. Looks like Im going to have to move this again, or else everyone is too ashamed of the hypocrisy? haha

 

[theskibag]

Hi Fleshy, just after reading your sticky and was a great read.

I feed my red bellies a mixture of 9mm NLS pellets and defrosted prawns/shrimp.

Want to give these guys the best diet possible so would you know if the NLS pellets are ok?

Would you totally cut the defrosted prawns/shrimp from their diet?

Thanks for the help

 

[FLESHY]

The sticky isnt mine, I am just trying to point out that there is conflicting information.

I fed my first RBP (Which I had as a child) only live.

Now that Im no longer 10, I like to feed my fish better. After reading through the nutrition sticky, I wanted to bring these points up, because the information seems conflicting, and Id like a real answer to what we should be feeding our fish.

Market shrimp are such a staple for so many different fish keepers professional and otherwise, Im starting to think that this thiaminase thing may be much ado about nothing. That being said, I did submit some questions on the matter to a geneticist that works at my university.

 

[Sm0ke]

Ive had great results with NLS - but if we are really trying to avoid thiaminase...why are we feeding them foods that are mainly things that contain thiaminase?

Just looks like there is no way around it...

I guess if you "must" feed your fish pellets and it contains that ingredient, well seems that way. Since you make your own food (which I think is great), why not use high quality ingredients that don't contain thiaminase? In that particular case (where you make your own food), why would you even waste your time with pellets anyways? Just curious. Sounds like you have a better game plan already.

 

[JKM]

Just my opinion, not looking to be flamed, but I think the thiaminase issue is over-exaggerated by a lot of hobbyists, I have seen some beautiful fish over the years that have lived the majority of there life on feeder golds and other supposed "high thiaminase" foods. Now whether or not it affected these fish is impossible for me to say, but I will say that I have had great results feeding NLS pellets to various fish and inverts, many a time turning average looking fish into good looking fish with good water + pellet diet.

ps. would of replied before, but with the p subforum no longer being on it's own like it was back in the day I forget it's even here lol

 

[Sm0ke]

I also think this would be a concern more for other types of fish keepers, rather than piranha keepers. The majority of experienced P keepers I know don't use pellets. However, those that keep fish like aros, oscars, cichlids etc. I could see this being very helpful. I have a group of wide-bar myleus schomburgkii that I feed pellets to, because it's easy work, doesn't require much from me. I also feed a P. Denticulata pellets because he stuffs his cheeks with them like they are seeds, because they eat seeds in the wild. But I never worry about max growth with these fish because I don't expect them to grow very large. However, if I were raising out an arowana that I want to see hit full size in home aquarium, I'd probably be paying more careful attention, probably like Fleshy. So I am curious to hear what the science folk says on the subject, always good to hear info from some reliable sources.

Regarding piranha, large ones are Piraya, Rhombeus and Manueli. These are the species I would worry about not getting their max size, or hindrance from growth. And even from that list, I'd worry less about piraya, as they seem to grow fast regardless. So in my realm of concern, I'd be worried about S. Rhombeus and S. Manueli.

Out of those 2, there are confirmed cases of decent/good growth on Manueli by feeding frozen in captivity, so we know it's possible for them to be healthy and grow large without pellets in home aquarium. Rhoms I believe would be the same, but people just end up buying large because of lack of patience to wait it out, which can take many, many years. From my personal experience, I have seen good growth by feeding frozen foods (such as salmon and mackerel) with alternating live foods (such as night crawlers etc.) and in addition, using liquid vitamins such as avitron or vitachem.

If I made my own food, I'd try to use similar ingredients but never really bothered because it gives me a chance to alternate their diet so they don't get bored of the same thing everyday.

Last I researched, salmon and mackerel are highest nutrition (even for humans), and don't appear to contain thiaminase.

Of course, others will have their opinions which I totally respect. This is just my take on the matter.