Occupy Wall Street?

[DavidW]

I anticipate another confirmation of Godwin's law soon.

 

[Warborg]

So because your view point differs from mine you want me to leave.

OWS in themselves is all over the map without a main direction or purpose

Personally, I liked reading your post(s) even if I don't agree with everything

I find it funny you said that people that work hard don't always have success

When I had work... I'd put in 70 hour weeks... but where did it get me? On the unemployment line.

My take is SOME can have success from working hard while others don't. Just as some get ahead without doing much(The phrase it's who you know).

 

[Wiggles92]

Sorry wrong. I have yet to meet anyone who is in a hole because they worked hard and avoided bad decisions. Some have a rougher start than others but unless you are disabled your hole is one you dug. I had to spend a year as a commercial diver to help fund college and still have debt but I got it in a field (Bio Med Eng.) that pays a fat salary. To answer the obvious retort, no engineering does not require great intellect or mechanical aptitude it requires standing there for 4-7 years and getting hit in the face over and over. Not having started a family prior to this painful endeavor helps but is not required.

I could have had a great awesome time in college, lit major, music major or communications major. They spent plenty of time partying. Those same individuals laughed at me for wasting my youth in engineering. College was a horrible experince and grad school was worse. Now I get to pay 30% Income and 10% home owner while I build my future and investments. You now want me after crap canning my best years to feel any pity for those idiots who laughed. Not just at me, this "intellectual" who looked down at the votech grad. The spoiled rich kid who laughed at banker's son that had to deliver pizza cause his dad wouldn't give him a free ride. The cheerleader who laughed at the nerdy kid but now wants that same nerdy kid to cover her 3 kids from the football hero that was never getting near the NFL.

The only support I have for the movement is for the vets. These men and women have earned the right to protest anything, anywhere and anytime. They are the reason these protestors get to squabble about entitlement. I'm not the 99% nor have I even been treated anything but badly by that 99% growing up in a blue collar neighborhood.

@JD7.62: As a commercial diver I'd like to point out under water basket weaving is really hard and actually pays well. Not sure if Cain's proposal will work but it beats the "Tax the rich" which means tax anyone making more than me.

Valid points.

I do not support those who have just slid by like the people you mentioned; I feel no pity for them. I do, however, feel pity for the people that did work hard and study in college in order to get great grades only to graduate with a large amount of debt and no job despite having worked during college in order to get by and having been at the top of their class. I support those who have tried and are still trying to get by; I'd like to see those who simply live off the government and do not make even the slightest attempt to find work stripped of their "entitled" support from the government. One should have to pay into the system in order to get something out of it; there should be no more of these handouts to those who do not make the slightest effort to contribute.

And I definitely agree that the veterans deserve better than what they are being given; they should not be treated as poorly by their country as they are.

So because your view point differs from mine you want me to leave. Typical for your type.

My point was that you kind of lumped everyone in a bad position together despite the fact that there are those who have put in enormous amounts of time in their jobs like you did yet they didn't become better off hence my original statement. I'll retract my previous statement regarding now that you've made it clear that you're not lumping everyone in a bad situation together.

And what's my type? I'm curious to see what type you peg me as. I'm sure that you'll be surprised to hear what my type is if you don't get it on your own.

I find it funny you said that people that work hard don't always have success but you follow it up saying people shouldn't work more than 40 hours a week. If you want success you HAVE TO BUST YOUR ASS. Stop asking for handouts. My wife and I hardly saw each other for two years. I worked 50+hrs a week M-F, she went to school during the week and worked weekend nights. Yeah it was tough, but we are BETTER OFF because of it. We didn't ***** and moan and wanted other people to feel sorry for us.

As for the 40 hour work week concept, the idea is that an hourly employee is supposed to be able to live off of working a job for the typical 40 hours a week while making a reasonable wage. This model for the ideal work week and pay rate worked wonders (increased employee morale and health, increased profits, etc.) for the past 100 or so years. The problem is that the current minimum wage is not a livable wage under today's economy thanks to poor choices on the part of the big corporations and government that are then passed on as inflation, increased prices, etc. while the rich are relatively unaffected by these changes. Keep in mind that this work week was meant for hourly workers; those who made considerably more were still expected to put in more hours.

Now, in your case, you were trying to considerably better yourself, right? In your case, working more is to be expected; you should get more for putting in more time. My question is would you have been able to get by on working just 40 hours a week as well as your wife working a decent number of hours a week while going to school?

I'd say that you got pretty lucky by working hard and it paying off; that's pretty awesome, and I don't have a problem with you being successful. Many others who have done the same as you have not had such luck, so why should they have to work the same hours as you did just to not make any forward progress?

Now I do realize some people get dealt a better hand than others. It is not your fault nor anyones elses if you get delt a good or a bad hand, but it is your fault if you get delt a good hand (compared to most of the worlds people EVERYONE in the US is delt a great hand) and ruin it. Conversely if you are delt a bad hand and do nothing to improve your chances of winning it is your fault.

I couldn't agree more with you about this part. The problem is that some people get dealt a bad hand and essentially have to run twice as fast as they should in order to stay in the same place; that's not a trend that should be supported.

Ive watched friends who were the son's of millionaires end up on drugs and on the street. My best friend's family came to this country about 15 years ago. They had NOTHING, literally just one suitcase each and the promise of one room in a house of a relative for the four of them. His dad work literally 18-20hrs a day and his mom worked almost as much. With in ten years they were multi-millionaires and my buddy drives a Bently and starting to take over his dad's business. Despite being able to inherit millions, he still puts in well more than 40hrs a week. Its that kind of attitude that this country was built on.

You're citing a single instance of extremely hard work paid off greatly; that's a pretty impressive feat, though, nonetheless. Were they able to afford health insurance during that time? What if they couldn't and one or both of your friend's parents had gotten sick or injured? I highly doubt that they'd be were they are today had one or both of them been unable to work for any extended period of time due to illness or injury. Now putting in more than 40 hours a week is expected if one intends on becoming rich, but it should not be expected if one is simply trying to get by.

Regarding taxes, any tax, or costly .gov regulation is simply passed on to the consumer. Taxing the rich more is simply making the goods and services you use more expensive. Decreasing taxes and unnecessary regulatory control increases productivity, which increases employment, and decreases the over all cost to the consumer.

As for taxing the rich, I'm more a fan of an even and fair treatment of all with a flat income tax that doesn't raise the taxes on the lower and middle class. Part of the problem with many of these large corporations and some of the rich is that they find ways to evade paying some or all of their taxes (off-shore bank accounts, demanded tax holidays, etc.) thereby depriving the government of needed funds yet they then ask for bailouts and such when their poor choices endanger their businesses only to spend said bailouts on raises for themselves and their executives while laying off many of their workers.

We'll take General Motors as an example of a company that should have been left to die. For the past few years, they've been making vehicles that haven't been selling terribly well considering the fact that they haven't had a full-year profit since 2004 before the beginning of this year. They closed 27 of their U.S. manufacturing plants in the past decade yet have also been opening manufacturing plants in other countries since then; thousands of U.S. workers directly employed by GM lost their jobs as well as many people who worked for the GM dealerships that had to close as a result of these closures. In contrast, some foreign car companies (Honda, Toyota, etc.) are moving their manufacturing operations to the U.S. thereby creating jobs without fostering this "wonderful" tradition of corporate greed. In addition, the average ratio of pay for CEOs vs. the average worker is 475:1 for the U.S. while it's 11:1 for Japan thereby a proportionally significantly larger chunk of money is being contributed to the hourly workers by these foreign car companies in contrast to the amount made by the hourly workers for General Motors.

I mean, what happened to the whole "survival of the fittest" idea? Shouldn't these big business have been left to die?

Taxes are a good thing, by the way (*gasp*). Our country's once-great infrastructure is crumbling around us thanks to a lack of maintenance as a result of people not wanting to "pay it forward" for the future generations. Just think about what we could have done with the money that's being hidden away from the government by the rich and the large corporations had they paid their fair share; instead, they basically maintain the standpoint that once one reaches their level, then one shouldn't have to pay taxes and contribute to the government. At some point, people became a little too self-centered for their own good, and it's killing what once made this country so great.

I anticipate another confirmation of Godwin's law soon.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

When I had work... I'd put in 70 hour weeks... but where did it get me? On the unemployment line.

My take is SOME can have success from working hard while others don't. Just as some get ahead without doing much(The phrase it's who you know).

Exactly. Why should you get screwed when there are those who do nothing and fully provided for by the government?

 

[Kaosu]

...1 had 3 minimum wage jobs..i was putting in 70 hours a week maybe more i had a few hours to sleep eat and get to work each day.. i busted my ass for 2 years like this for nothing.
I barely made any money...i moved got a better job and busted my ass for that company...worked and worked and stayed after hours and kept working..infact i LOVED that job and planned on working my way up..or working up enough money to go to school....but you know what? that didn't happen... the economy turned and guess who gets booted for all of my work?..


and school...HAH right...i cant afforded it.. most financial aid people will not help me ..loans?...yeah not on my life.

i have worked and worked and worked...and worked more..infact im working now..barely i do not make enough money to survive on and the money i do make i have to work EVERYDAY....no mater what or i don't have a job...

where is the justice in that?

I have bee looking for more work for over 2 years now and as my real employment history gets further behind me my resume and applications just get looked over and discarded with the 500 other applicants for one job.

Im not looking for a hand out...i KNOW how to work hard....the employers just have so much to chose from..why pick someone who has not worked for 2 years?......Its frustrating and something has to change.

 

[JD7.62]

Wiggles, you are almost there. You see, the 9-9-9 plan is a great step towards a fair flat tax. Under the plan big corporations wont have tax havens or unfair tax deductions. Yes I understand it will raise taxes a very small amount for people like us but in the long run, the .gov will have a better idea of what tax revenue they will get and a better idea how to balance the budget. It will also allow smaller businesses that dont have the security of the tax havens larger corporations have to be able to compete with larger businesses. Competition keeps us employed and gives us better products.

As far as minimum wage, Im against a minimum wage period. Again, like taxes, the wages of employees are reflected in a price of a product, higher minimum wages = higher cost of products for the consumer, it gets us no where. It doesnt matter if I make 20% more an hour if that means everything I buy is costing me 20% more. Let the market decide how much EVERYTHING is worth, that is how capitalism is suppose to work.

 

[Inglorious]

So how do you feel about people who went to college, got a good degree(wife got marketing/management and I went engineering), worked hard to move up in life(buy our two cars, our home, etc.) and then lose it all through being laid off because of corporate downturn? After a couple years of struggling to find full time work my wife got a job fulfilling internet orders for a major retail store and is also going to school full time to get another degree to make herself more marketable. I was able to keep my job, but have barely avoided being laid off myself a few times, and have also started going to school again full time to earn another degree. We're both working very hard, but were still forced to sell our home due to factors out of our control. Can you still blame our situation on us and our decisions or did we just get screwed over by the system and are stuck trying to crawl out of a hole that we didn't dig?

 

[Arthur]

I'd be more entertained if there was a clear goal of the protest, it seems to me that people are just protesting because they can. I'm in no way a part of the "1%", but to march with no clear goal doesn't seem like the best idea. If you're going to protest rich people to stop being rich, you're just dumb.

 

[Lepisosteus platyrhincus]

You got a bad deal. Sry but its life. You deal and try but you cant expect others to suffer cause your bad deal.

So how do you feel about people who went to college, got a good degree(wife got marketing/management and I went engineering), worked hard to move up in life(buy our two cars, our home, etc.) and then lose it all through being laid off because of corporate downturn? After a couple years of struggling to find full time work my wife got a job fulfilling internet orders for a major retail store and is also going to school full time to get another degree to make herself more marketable. I was able to keep my job, but have barely avoided being laid off myself a few times, and have also started going to school again full time to earn another degree. We're both working very hard, but were still forced to sell our home due to factors out of our control. Can you still blame our situation on us and our decisions or did we just get screwed over by the system and are stuck trying to crawl out of a hole that we didn't dig?

 

[Clay]

I find the line that is drawn (99% vs 1%) interesting because it's isn't 99 to 1. It's 53 vs 47 47% of Americans don't pay taxes AND receive some sort of government assistance. Pleas note that I make no comment on that issue, but I do wonder where the 99% comes from.

Also, the end goal of Occupy Wall Street is what? End Capitalism?

 

[DavidW]

It seems from analysis by economists that Cain's 999 plan will actually add about $5k per year in taxes for a family of 4 earning about $50k, or $10k per year for those earning $100k
It actually represents the biggest shift in wealth in US history from the middle class to the 1% and would also massively increase the deficit.
999 was not thought up by economists, but rather by an accountant friend of Cain's, who even himself has dismissed the plan.
It is easy to understand the appeal of such a plan. The concept is simple to understand right? but as always, the devil is in the details. Don't be fooled by simple catch phrases like 999, or drill baby drill. That is politics for simple fools.
9 pizzas, 9 toppings, 9 minutes.