Optimizing W/D Sump

[Jon M]

Hey fellas. Long time member. Been on a bit of a hiatus from the internet. Hope these forums are still pretty active. I'd like to get back in touch with some like minded hobbyist online again!

I'd like to start with getting some opinions, and advice on one of my current tanks filtrations. I was recently viewing the under your stand thread and I see all these beautiful sump, and w/d sump setups with all sorts of gadgets and media. I'm feeling like maybe my setup is beyond basic and maybe I could get some pointers on optimizing my setup.

I have a tsunami w/d sump filter. (very unimpressed with the design but that's another story) Not sure about gallons. 36" long x 14" wide x 16" tall. So when I look at other folks setups I see tons of media, sponges, etc and this is where I'm feeling like I'm under equipped.

I have floss in the tray above the bioball chamber I replace every week. (sometimes I'll give it an extra week but for the most part it's a weekly change). Then obviously the large bio-ball chamber. Then I have 2x 300w heaters in the large center chamber with a couple random media bags of ceramic rings. Then in the pump chamber at the end I just have more random media bags of ceramic rings, and the pump.

I see people with layers of sponges, these rectangular block things, even sponges in the transition spots where the water flows over into the next chamber? So I've googled setting up a w/d pretty extensively in the past and I really couldn't find a definitive "guide" so to speak, for what to put in them and where.

So lay it on me. What would you suggest for upgrades???

 

[esoxlucius]

The top and bottom of it is, is that all these "beautiful sumps with all the gadgets and media" do exactly the same job as your simple set up. We have a saying in the hobby which many of us, myself included, adhere to. It's referred to as the KISS method (Keep It Simple Stupid). Another famous saying....if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Saying that, if your water is constantly manky or your parameters are all over the place or your sump is an absolute pita to work on at maintanance time, then yes, you may want to upgrade your mech side to help polish your water, or add more bio media to help stabilise your parameters, and may want to make your sump easier to work on.

But if things are fine I'd be sorely tempted to leave them be to be honest.

 

[twentyleagues]

Like esoxlucius said if it ain't broke don't fix it. People over do sumps all the time. If you have enough media to convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate you're good. If you have clear water with no fine particles floating around you're good.

Ive tried to get a "complete" cycle, meaning even nitrate is broken down by using different methods mostly expensive medias or gadgets that go in the sump but it never really has any lasting effects. So don't fall for that garbage. Water change and in some instances plants.
I've always liked to put my heaters in the last chamber or return chamber. As it's the farthest away from the display and should be the "coldest" imo makes the tank temp more stable. It's what I learned while doing salt water could be bs but it also seems kinda logical. But doing so also puts all the mechanics in one chamber all your mech and bio in the others.

 

[jjohnwm]

^ What thaey said!

To me, "improving" a sump means getting better access for cleaning and water changes, perhaps making some room for installation of heaters and/or other hardware to get the stuff out of harm's way in the tank itself.

Having a beautiful, laboratory-crystal-clear sump full of impressive-looking commercial media...makes about as much sense as working hard to make your appendix look like a really attractive appendix. What's the point?

 

[duanes]

I agree with the others.
If your tank remains cycled, and the mechanical filtration meets your idea of what your water clarity is, that enough.
The only extra out of a sump I want, is to help reduce nitrate, but you don't get that with more man made objects.
Only plants and water changes do that, so my sumps are less than 1/4 media, the rest is heavily planted.
I also (like jjohnworm) want ease of access, and maintenance, so I usually don't put sumps directly under a tank, or hidden in a hard to negotiate around cabinets.
My 125 gal heavily planted sump below.

You can see the pump, most plumbing, and media is located in a small part of the left end.
Water enters on the right, and travels thru the forest before hitting Porrett foam (the black pad) as mechanical filtration, and a few bags of media and a porous block as biomedia.

The sump is about waist high, so no bending or crawling to do maintenance is needed.
And no permanent compartments to restrict arm movement, or reduce access to the pump or to get in the way if I want to add new filtration innovations.
To do a water change, I open a valve and old water flows to the garden.
I had the same system years ago in the US where I had 20 tanks on 4 sumps, so if I opened a valve a couple of hundred gallons of old water irrigated my garden in WI., in the matter of only a few moments

I realize I blather on and on, but few aquarists seem to realize the endless possibilities unencumbered sumps can provide.
I also keep a large colony of shrimp in the sump that reduces detritus, and helps clean the biomedia.

 

[jjohnwm]

...few aquarists seem to realize the endless possibilities unencumbered sumps can provide...

Oh, yes...forgot to mention the one feature of so many sumps that is the single biggest PITA about them: those space-wasting, always-in-the-way, versatility-robbing partitions.

Sumps are at their best when they offer versatility, and they do that best when there are not a dozen assorted partitions glued across them. Worst of all are the designs that have a sealed partition at the end of the water-flow path, the type that requires water to overflow into the pump chamber. This creates a small chamber that is the only place in the whole system where water level drops due to evaporation, splashes, etc. The smaller that chamber is, the more drastic the change in water level for any given volume of lost water. In extreme cases, such as a DIY sump that a friend of mine created, the pump chamber was so tiny that simply removing a couple large rocks from the tank starved the pump. Great idea...it was wonderfully entertaining to listen to him rationalizing the design while researching auto top-up systems.

If your reason for buying a high-tech sump is to be able to show off a high-tech sump...have at it. But if you believe that it will do a better job than your current one, you should think long and hard before taking the plunge. Even that won't guarantee satisfaction, but it will help. Good luck!

 

[Jon M]

Understood. I think I need to be more detailed with my "issues" with my sump. (lol, KISS. I love it)

1. I don't wanna say my water isn't "clear" per say but I do have debris constantly in my sump. I feel like the filter floss in the tray above the bioball chamber does not get all the particles out of the water. My only logical thought as to why this happens is excess water flowing around the tray. I mean, it's not like air tight, and the floss doesn't fit incredibly snug so as far as I can tell this is inevitable. I feel like those filter socks would literally make it impossible for water to flow anywhere but right threw the sock, trapping any and all particles, but I don't see how I could use socks in my tsunami w/d because the plumbing goes straight into a lid over the tray that is over the bioball chamber.

2. This is a continuation of my 1. issue, but I have honestly quite a bit of debris in my sump underneath the bioball chamber, and the design is literally a sealed chamber so I can't fathom how you get this waste out once it's collected in there. At one pojnt I used a bucket head and reducer pieces to create a small 1/2" hose to try to shove under the bioball chamber to get as much out, and I think I successfully got most, but now it's collected again. It's carried over into the other chambers a bit and frankly I'm not happy with any debris in there but without being able to install those nifty socks I don't see how else I would ensure zero particles pass my mechanical, which I guess is solely the filter floss in the tray.

3. duanes I think I just read you said you had a system that allowed you to drain water from the sump to do your water changes? I'm curious how you do this?.... If I were to kill my pump, then drain from the sump I'd simply get a portion of the small amount that resides in the sump. As far as accessibility, besides those sealed chambers I mentioned that I cannot get into, I'd say my sump is pretty easily accessible to myself. I am not running it under my stand. In fact, underneath my stand is totally empty for the most part. I knocked out a decent size hole in my wall and plumbed my tank threw the wall into a kitchen pantry I gutted. So if I want to access my w/d, I simply open the pantry door in the kitchen. ?

I've pondered off and on, "do I simply have a poorly designed w/d and should I buy another one?," but I've for the most part read tsunami designs are pretty popular.... (it certainly wasn't cheap!) I just can't fathom how I'd add any mechanical to this? Maybe some pictures would be helpful? I'll go snap a few and post them. Thanks for the responses guys.

 

[Jon M]

Ignore the aluminum tape.... When I first bought this setup I payed a local guy to help me plumb it. He plumbed it under the stand with the stand opening against a wall so I had to break everything down and move it all to get the sump out of the stand and replumb everything... Not only did he do the most simple plumb job possible (I was much less experienced at the time and have since replumbed everything myself) but when he did the plumbing he had the fitting coming into the top of the sump so tight the pressure split the plastic.

 

[duanes]

3. duanes I think I just read you said you had a system that allowed you to drain water from the sump to do your water changes? I'm curious how you do this?.... If I were to kill my pump, then drain from the sump I'd simply get a portion of the small amount that resides in the sump. As far as accessibility, besides those sealed chambers I mentioned that I cannot get into, I'd say my sump is pretty easily accessible to myself. I am not running it under my stand. In fact, underneath my stand is totally empty for the most part. I knocked out a decent size hole in my wall and plumbed my tank threw the wall into a kitchen pantry I gutted. So if I want to access my w/d, I simply open the pantry door in the kitchen. ?

I use a 125 tank as a sump, and it normally holds about 100 gallon of water (it is filled to about 3" of the height of the tank/sump) while running.
and I keep it running while doing water changes, but.........
By simply turning a valve, some tank water always returns to the sump, while most of it is sent to the garden.
I usually change almost the entire 100 gallons. each water change
At the point it drains enough that the pump to almost start sucking air, I close the valve (no more to the garden) and start adding the new 100 gallons Water to the tank, via the sump.

I know they are popular, but I don't like shallow, low water volume sumps,
not enough wiggle room if something goes south, like a plugged overflow line to the sump allowing the pump to run dry.
Shallow sumps also do not provide enough height for what I consider the most important function of a sump, a chamber for growing plants for nitrate reduction


By using a 125 tank as a sump for the 180 (main tank), even if the power goes out, the 3" of play in the sump, can handle any overflow from the tank until power is restored..

 

[jjohnwm]

Ignore the aluminum tape.... When I first bought this setup I payed a local guy to help me plumb it. He plumbed it under the stand with the stand opening against a wall so I had to break everything down and move it all to get the sump out of the stand and replumb everything... Not only did he do the most simple plumb job possible (I was much less experienced at the time and have since replumbed everything myself) but when he did the plumbing he had the fitting coming into the top of the sump so tight the pressure split the plastic.

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This wet/dry sump is a perfect example of what I was mentioning earlier about partitions. Let's take the last partition first; I mean the one closest to the pump and beneath which the water flows. What function does it serve? Hint: it's nothing good. It simply takes up space and gets in the way when you are reaching in to do something. Removing that partition would not impact the function of this sump at all.

Now how about the one next to that one, the one that is sealed at the bottom and forces water to flow over the top? What does it do, exactly? Well, it prevents the water level in the wet/dry chamber from dropping below a certain level...but why would one want that? Having as much of the wet/dry media above water level is a good thing; that's what bioballs are intended for, and the bacteria on them is exposed to much more oxygen that way than drowning them under water. So having the water level drop lower would not hurt a thing and might help.

But that partition also creates the chamber in which the pump sits, which is the only chamber that will show a change in water level if water or other material is removed from or added to the system. Just by a rough eyeball estimation, I'd say that this chamber occupies about 25% of the foot print of the sump. Now let's say that over the course of the next few days, you have 2 gallons of water evaporate from this system, which can easily happen depending upon the size of the tank, how well covered it is, temperature, relative humidity, etc. Two gallons of water loss from the entire system might translate to a drop in water level in that tiny pump chamber of, say, 4 inches. But if that partition were removed, the water level in the entire sump would only drop 1 inch. You would have much more time between water top-offs without worrying about starving the pump. If you have a reasonable water change schedule, you'd likely never do top-offs as levels wouldn't drop far enough between changes.

As far as mechanical filtration goes, why can't you place a tray on top of the bioball column and fill it with floss and/or foam? If the sump could be lowered somewhat, you could make this extra container deeper and place the mechanical media to fit snugly across the bottom. Make it easy to access, and if you use foam you could literally remove it daily, give it a quick squeeze and rinse in tap water and replace it in minutes. Doing this will reduce nitrate build-up in your system because you will be removing much of the solid organic waste before it breaks down. And, if you don't wish to do daily maintenance like this, a deeper tray with foam at the bottom will build up a certain amount of "head" as the foam clogs and water flow through it slows down. Standing water above the foam will increase pressure to force itself through the clogged foam, actually increasing the efficiency of the mechanical filtration by decreasing the minimum particle size being removed.

That fine sediment/silt that forms under the bioballs? Good luck with finding a way to prevent it; I suspect that it is largely composed of the bacterial biofilm sloughing off the bioballs as the filter ages, and it always appears. If you have room, you can install a drain at the bottom of the wet/dry chamber, controlled with a valve, and then periodically just drain a small amount of water off in an effort to remove the accumulation.

A question for you: why is the wet/dry chamber so sealed up in your sump? The benefit of the wet/dry concept is maximum aeration and oxygenation available to the bacteria. It would seem that a very loosely covered chamber, allowing maximum airflow, would be preferable. Does the manufacturer explain their logic behind this?