Other Ways of Curing Spironucleous

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Miguel said:
How did you does it Armand? With food, with a probe? Solo, diluted in water?

Quantiies?Days you repeated the procedure?
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I bought this medication:

FL1306.jpg

It contains metronidazole and praziquantel I dosed to water following the directions.

After exactly 11 days didnt have results so started to dose it mixed with mashed food using a prove directly into fish gut, still had no results per the next 8 days.

FL1306.jpg
 
There are a ton of articles supporting both sides here. I can post a ton of links but I really don't care that much to waste my time. I am here to share my hands on experience. I personally have never gotten metro in any form to dissolve in water. I have not had a bath cure a fish either. Before I found kens flakes, after losing many fish despite metro baths, I started reading online about how the only luck most fh keepers have had at ridding hex was thru feeding metro mixed with food. I bought a bottle of metro pills from my veterinary, crushed them and mixed with frozen beefheart and blood worms. After about a week, my fh appeared happy and healthy. That same fh spent nearly a month in a metro bath before this with 0 results. I fed a few others the medicated food and they cleared right up as well. Having nearly 200 fish at the time, I knew there was no way I could afford to treat them all this way. Only around 30 showed signs but being that hex is so sneaky, I wanted to treat all my fish. I found those metro flakes at kens. Fed all fish metro flakes for 1 month. (1 month due to low amount of metro present on flakes, to allow antibiotic to build up, and in hopes that all hex in cyst form would hatch within that month) No signs of hex since. SUCCESS! Now if you want to try a metro bath, go right ahead. I don't personally know a single person that has had success this way without another breakout upon the very next time the fish was stressed. If they fish is eating, the best thing you can do is to feed it metro. All of my infected fish that wouldn't eat died while being bathed in metro. I did recently read an article where a fh that wouldn't eat was offered a worm injected with metro. I wish I had thought of that before losing my big beautiful koky Thia silk. Even sick fish have a hard time resisting worms:)

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Did I just the enter the twilight zone?


From my initial comment in this discussion .......

While Metronidazole has always been the drug of choice when combating internal parasites such as hexamita and/or spironucleus, metro (or any other type of medication) should never be used on a regular basis as a prophylactic, and doing so may cause flagellates/parasites to develop a resistance to the medication, and possibly even mutate and become super bugs. It's also been stated by at least one researcher that excessive use of metronidazole can cause organ damage in fish. In fish, an excessive use of metronidazole can damage kidneys and other internal organs.(Bassleer, 1983) Other cons with metronidazole is its solubility in water is very poor, in aquarium settings it has been suggested that it can precipitate out of solution within 6-8 hours, and it can become rather expensive when treating large systems.
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I am not in any way supporting the use of Metronidazole, as a bath, or orally - can I be any clearer about that?

In fact, if you read the comments that I made in this recent thread you will see quite clearly just how easy some of these aquatic bugs can become super bugs, and why I am not a big fan of most of the drugs typically used in aquaculture. http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?527245-COLLUMNARIS-DUCK-LIPS-DISEASE


Up to 77 percent of the studied specimens in that study were resistant to Tetracycline, a drug that has been routinely used in aquaculture for decades. 77 percent of the fish randomely selected from that importers facility in Portland. That's freaking crazy!


And on that note, Asia is the worst place on the planet for most of these bugs/super bugs, and bugs that are resistant to many of the more traditional medications used in this hobby. And where pray tell do flowerhorn originate from?

HELLO!


No one here is telling me anything that I don't already know, and have known for many years.


But if you are going to come on to a public forum such as MFK, and attempt to tell me that people such as Dr. Noga, Dr. Ruth Francis-Floyd, and Dr. Bassleer are all wrong, and you are right, you best bring something more to the table than your personal opinion. These experts (a word that I seldom use) have seen and successfully treated more cases of hexamita/spironucleus than most people could even begin to imagine.

Dr. Ruth alone has dealt with some of the largest commercial cichlid farms found in North America, farms where each pond could contain over 10,000 cichlids, with some farms having in excess of 100 ponds. And you think that you know more than she does about dealing with hex/spiro outbreaks - and what works, and what doesn't?

Excuse me while I LMAO.


A nod is as good as a wink, to a blind horse.
 
I am sure your experts trumph any link I post but here are just a few that popped right up when using google. Upon more extensive research, I am sure i could find a page of links. Can't promise that any are published in medical journals so I guess you win, but here are some anyways... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/metranidazole.htm
http://www.flowerhornrus.com/sicknesspreventions.htm
http://fishprofiles.com/profiles/diseases/Hexamita/100016/
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archive/index.php/t-25140.html
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/hexamita.php
http://www.flowerhornusa.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t24923.html
I am only here to help. Not to argue. I am sorry that my personal experience doesn't agree with your facts. Unfortunately, the personal experiences of many other people don't agree with your facts either. I am sure some people have had success in bath treatment, I have not and I do not personally know anyone that has. And as a matter of fact, the disease was passed on to me thru a fish that had been "cured" in a metro bath before I bought him. Once again, slightly reworded, IMO, from my personal experience and from the many hours I have spent researching the topic, metro bath is highly ineffective. It must be fed to rid the disease.
 
I am sure your experts trumph any link I post but here are just a few that popped right up when using google. Upon more extensive research, I am sure i could find a page of links. Can't promise that any are published in medical journals so I guess you win, but here are some anyways... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/metranidazole.htm
http://www.flowerhornrus.com/sicknesspreventions.htm
http://fishprofiles.com/profiles/dis...xamita/100016/
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archiv...p/t-25140.html
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/hexamita.php
http://www.flowerhornusa.com/forums/...hp/t24923.html
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Yes, by all means ignore the experts, and only trust sources that post their info on flowerhorn forums.

:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

This just keeps getting funnier & funnier.


BTW - the following comment was from your first link, wetwebmedia. Bob actually quotes directly from the written work of Dr. Ruth Francis-Floyd from the U of Florida, and Dr. Edward Noga from the NC State University, two of the same experts that I used as my references. (see his references following his closing comment below)



Tolerances/Dangers:

As stated, not safe to use continuously or repeatedly.

Use With Other Chemicals:

Safe to add, treat while in the presence of other compounds.

Cloze:

A good deal of "anomalous" imported (from the Far East) livebearer and anabantoid losses, and mormyrid, polypterid losses from Africa exporters, and wild discus and angelfish from South America (from intestinal flagellates)... have been solved with a single dose or dip with Metronidazole... It is also the treatment of choice for "Hole in the Head" (and side) "Disease"... along with restorative measures to improve water quality and adequate nutrition. However, all should be warned and aware that Flagyl is toxic and accumulative in its toxicity. The author has seen quite a few valuable (expensive) nishikigoi (koi carp) killed by careless administration of this anti-protozoal. I do wish there was some compelling way to have the trade itself pre-emptively check, quarantine, and treat to avoid the transmission (on to consumers) of such easily defeated pathogens... sparing end-users the dangers of using such compounds, and avoidable losses.




Bibliography/Further Reading:

Management of Hexamita in Ornamental Cichlids http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM053

Andrews, Chris, Exell, Adrian and Neville Carrington. 1988. The Manual of Fish Health. Tetra Press, NJ. 208 pp.

Herwig, Nelson. 1979. Handbook of Drugs and Chemicals Used in the Treatment of Fish Diseases. Charles Thomas, Illinois. 272 pp.

Noga, Edward. 1996. Fish Disease. Diagnosis and Treatment. Mosby-Year Book, Missouri. 367 pp.
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FYI - Bob Fenner from wetwebmedia doesn't even keep freshwater fish, nor do I believe that he ever has. He actually asked me to join his wetwebmedia crew as a health & nutrition advisor in the past. I respectfully declined. :D


And finally, you are right about one thing, none of your sources will be posted in any type of scientific journal, or by anyone with any type of scientific credentials, because no such data exists.

Now do the forum a favor & take your petty little one sided argument over to one of the many flowerhorn forums sites that will support your claims, because what you are doing here isn't going to help anyone, and quite frankly I have better things to do with my time than continusouly schooling you on this subject matter.


I actually started this topic to help people, not to confuse them with a bunch of unfounded hyperbole.

10-4, over & out.
 
your probably right. I am sure it is best to dismiss the trials and errors of hobbyist and purely rely on the findings of experts that treat 1000s at a time rather than concentrating all their efforts on one fish. All hail to you sir and your infinite knowledge.
 
We will separate the Metronidazole treatment to a new apropriate thread, where this discussion may, and should, ensue.

:)
 
your probably right. I am sure it is best to dismiss the trials and errors of hobbyist and purely rely on the findings of experts that treat 1000s at a time rather than concentrating all their efforts on one fish. All hail to you sir and your infinite knowledge.
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FYI - I have never outright dismissed the findings of hobbyists & the use of metro. In fact, I have discussed this topic with hundreds of hobbyists in the past, and sat on the sidelines assisting many people save their fish when all other options had failed, and/or the fish had refused food of any type. At one time I was a mod on what was at that time the largest & most active cichlid site on the web. I moderated the health & illness folder, and spent thousands of man hours volunteering my time to help hobbyists. Many of my solutions are from outside the box, just as this epsom salt treatment is, so I am most certainly willing to listen or think beyond just what traditional science teaches. Having said that, I have seen the results of metronidazole baths first hand - and have seen them work!

How well a metro bath may or may not work can be dependent on a number of factors, including rate of dosage, temp of tank, amount of organics in tank water, amount/duration of lighting, whether carbon or UV is being ran, size of fish, how sick the fish is, and how long it has been sick, etc-etc. It is not a simple single cut & dry situation for EVERY fish and EVERY hobbyist. Conditions could be vary from one tank to the next, so short of owning a crystal ball there's no way for anyone to determine what the next person has done in their tank, when treating their fish via a bath. In fact, from my experience most hobbyists do not keep track of the fine details, and/or record those details to review at a later date.

Do baths work 100% of the time - nope, never said that they did, but metronidazole in a bath is still capable of eradicating spironucleus vortens, in many scenarios it just happens to be much more effective if ingested orally. This simple fact has been proven many times over, in both labs, and in the field.





Thanks for following up on my recommendation, Miguel. You should be able to split the thread starting at post #59. That way those that want to discuss the various ups & downs or ins & outs of metro can do so until their heart's content. :)
 
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