Oxygen question

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Part of the issues with running PH controllers is the pH in the water doesn't track the ppm of CO2 instantly. There is a lag there too. And, any controller has to allow the pH to vary a little in order to work. Otherwise, it continually hunts - turns on and off every few seconds - which isn't a great idea either. As far as I know most pH controller have a "on" setting and a different "off" setting, to avoid the hunting. The other thing with Controllers is the pH probe needs recalibrated periodically. If your using a Reactor, another issue you will have with using a controller is you can get a big overshoot on CO2 concentration. How? The CO2 collected in the reactor will continue to go into the water until it is depleted, some time after the controller shuts off the CO2. And, again, the water pH changes lag the CO2 concentration changes, further adding to the overshoot.

Here is some of my experience with a controller and how I would set it up if your going to use it. Again your using the fish to be the measure of how much is to much Co2.

Here is my input as someone who has used a pH controller for the past 5 yrs. Here are some observations during that time:

1. Slowly and carefully determine the stress point for your fish and shrimp. When you reach that point that they are showing stress measure that point in the water with a calibrated probe and meter. If that amount lets say is a PH of 6.0 then set the pH controller to turn on the CO2 at 6.2 and turn it off at 6.1. This will keep it within safe levels if your using a slower BPS. If using a higher BPS and a reactor give some more gap.. Say on at 6.3 or 6.4 then off at 6.2 or 6.3.

2. Fine tune the rate of injection to achieve the desired pH level in a relatively short amount of time. I adjust my needle valve several times during the life of my CO2 tank refill so that the gas is not injected for long periods of time (too low rate) or does not overshoot the desired level before the controller can turn it off (too high rate) thus stressing the fauna.

3. Check probe calibration regularly. I use 6 month intervals, but have rarely had to adjust.

4. Diffusion methods can greatly impact the rate of CO2 needed. I have used ceramic diffusers, reactors, and currently the new Atomic diffuser....and each method has required a different CO2 rate to easily keep the pH consistently at 6.1.

As usual, your results may vary. I just thought I would share my relatively long term experience here
 
Also I should add...... That when adjusting your set up plan a WHOLE day to do so. Adjust in small increments. Watch the fish for stress. Let it sit for an hour or two. If no issues adjust it a little higher. Keep doing this till the first signs of stress. Then back it off to the last known increment that showed no stress. Now your set. From there its about adjusting flow, light, nutrients.
 
Drop checkers are a useful tool but you have to remember they are very inaccurate. Several things influence them. Drop checkers have issues/trade offs. They are not responsive, takes awhile for them to respond to cO2 change, they only measure one place in the tank, a larger issues as the tank become larger, color differentiation can be tough and not that accurate. Current and flow in the tank or lack of can make a difference in how a drop checker responds. Placement will make a difference. The 4Dkh solution as well as the color solution you use makes a difference. Even the method the Co2 is introduced to the water makes a difference on a drop checker. If you use an Atomizer it will make the drop checker change faster especially if its where direct bubbles can enter it easily. If using a reactor the mix of the water and co2 is greater so you end up with higher dissolved Co2 amounts in the water. It causes drop checkers to respond slower. Some things can cause drop checkers to get false readings. Thus you end up with a much lower concentration then what you want. That can lead to quick and difficult Algae issues or growth issues with your plants. Then you have the opposite where Ive seen drop checkers get false readings or be VERY slow to respond and out of no where next thing you know you have fish gasping. Tweaking in a Co2 system is probably one of the more difficult things for a planted tank enthusiast.

If you work with most any of the people that have lots of experience with Co2 and planted tanks you will find most of them use the fish and their plants as the tool to tell them if they have to much or not enough. Of course well all give way to the fish as we dont want fish deaths or stress issues. So we push it to the first sign of fish stress, Then back it off a safe amount. From there you adjust your light, circulation and other factors. It is ni no way harsh. In fact quite the opposite as your keeping the life of your fish being the most important. I can revive most plants. Even if not oh well. But I cant revive a fish once its died and I have that attachment with them. Its not oh well..

I know im new to the forum here, but have been doing plated aquarium and Co2 for some time now.

I agree with what you said, but only IF you have a crap load of experience with planted tanks :)

The pros i know dont use anything other than PH controllers to know the parameters of their tanks, and pretty much use their knowledge of plants to know if there is too much Co2...

But for people like me, who've been at this for less than a year, a drop checker has saved me a crap load of headaches and guess work with roughly how much Co2 im pumping into my tank...

Last but not least, as long as a person reads the instructions on how to setup a drop checker properly, chances are they will at least have some idea of whats happening in their tank as long as its not placed directly over the Co2 diffuser outlet, and diffuser is places near the outlet of the filter for good Co2 circulation :)


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I agree with what you said, but only IF you have a crap load of experience with planted tanks :)

The pros i know dont use anything other than PH controllers to know the parameters of their tanks, and pretty much use their knowledge of plants to know if there is too much Co2...

But for people like me, who've been at this for less than a year, a drop checker has saved me a crap load of headaches and guess work with roughly how much Co2 im pumping into my tank...

Last but not least, as long as a person reads the instructions on how to setup a drop checker properly, chances are they will at least have some idea of whats happening in their tank as long as its not placed directly over the Co2 diffuser outlet, and diffuser is places near the outlet of the filter for good Co2 circulation :)


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I agree.

Drop checkers are great tools for people with less experience. I used to use them. In fact to help dial in my systems I used to use several in one tank. Youd be surprised how different the readings were inside of a single tank. One thing it helped me dial in was complete tank circulation. It helped me eliminate dead zones. Now all the plants in my tanks were getting even distribution.

Most the big time pros I know dont use drop checkers or ph meters. Ive used both myself and after much time of running planted tanks I use my livestock and plants to tell me. Plants want more co2 then any fish can handle. Fish can only handle so much. So there has to be a comprise.

Using a ph meter in the mannor I mentioned works very well. But you still have to use your fish to tell you that maximum level. Then with the calibrated probe use that stress point to set the base and safety marks.

I'm not saying people shouldn't use these tools I'm just saying remember they are far from accurate you may need to push farther then the meter or drop checker says to get the best results.

To each what works best for them. I just like to share my experiences to maybe help.

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^ agreed, there is never really a one solution that fits all kinda deal... And only with experience can you gain knowledge of our tanks ;)


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^ agreed, there is never really a one solution that fits all kinda deal... And only with experience can you gain knowledge of our tanks ;)


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Spot on. This is why sharing and learning with others works so great as it allows the abillity to pull from many different experinces as well as many years of experinces.
 
BTW pearling is an effect of the plants collecting O2 bubbles because the water is saturated with it.
.

You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about planted tanks but this is not correct I'm surprised that you believe this.
Pearling on plants is oxygen produced by photosynthesis. It is not co2 sticking to the plants. co2 can get trapped under leaves as if floats up. But its not sticking to the leaves. You can get pearling on plants under bright lights without adding any co2. To prove this theory of yours that it is just co2 sticking to the plants and not oxygen produced by the plants. Turn on your co2 in the morning like you normally do but don't turn on your lights leave them off all day. If your plants don't pearl then its not co2 sticking to the plants but oxygen produced by the plants.

At night plants consume oxygen and release co2. If your fish are gasping for air at the surface at night then an air bubbles in the current is needed. I run a small powerhead at night in my 120. In my 25 I don't add any air to it. It just depends on each tank if the fish need it.
 
You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about planted tanks but this is not correct I'm surprised that you believe this.
Pearling on plants is oxygen produced by photosynthesis. It is not co2 sticking to the plants. co2 can get trapped under leaves as if floats up. But its not sticking to the leaves. You can get pearling on plants under bright lights without adding any co2. To prove this theory of yours that it is just co2 sticking to the plants and not oxygen produced by the plants. Turn on your co2 in the morning like you normally do but don't turn on your lights leave them off all day. If your plants don't pearl then its not co2 sticking to the plants but oxygen produced by the plants.

At night plants consume oxygen and release co2. If your fish are gasping for air at the surface at night then an air bubbles in the current is needed. I run a small powerhead at night in my 120. In my 25 I don't add any air to it. It just depends on each tank if the fish need it.


Thanks for the comments, Your right, I do know this, but I think you misunderstood my post though or maybe I didnt explain myself very well. (probably the latter)

If you look at my quote Im not saying Co2 (carbon Dioxide) I am saying O2 (Oxygen) or at least I hope I didnt typo it. lol.

Let me try this again and see if I can explain better.

Yes, due to photosynthesis of the plants they release Oxygen (O2), But it occurs when plants are producing oxygen in already oxygen-saturated water at a rate that is faster than the fish consume it and faster than it escapes into the atmosphere by gas exchange at the surface of the water. Rapidly metabolizing plants (fast growers) produce more O2 than slow growers (anubias, ferns, mosses, crypts). NORMALLY......... It helps if you have high light, high CO2, and a large mass of rapidly growing plants to get the best pearling.

But I totally agree with you that it is NOT co2 just sticking to the leaves. It is O2 (oxygen). Things can grow perfectly well without pearling. Ive had some tanks that grow awesome but never pearl.

I dont add any air to my tanks at night or anytime. I use a powerhead 24/7 to create a ripple on the surface for good gas exchange. Never have had any fish issues due to Co2 issues.


Hopefully that time I did better at explaining myself.. Sorry for any confusion.
 
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