P. polleni - duck lips?

MooseTheWizard

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Jan 22, 2017
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Hello,

I have a P. polleni that has been inactive and not eating for the past several days. His lips have been a bit white, but I chalked this up to him digging. Today I noticed they are quite swollen.

He is about 3 years old, living alone in a 65 gallon. Nitrate is <5ppm right now and the last WC was this past Thursday. Normally the temp is 81F.

Some research leads me to believe this may be duck lips/columnaris. I have lowered the temperature to 75F for now, and dosed kanaplex. I know this is not the best medication for this job, but as I am Canadian my options for medications are extremely limited thanks to a brain-dead government. The only other thing I have is some Neoplex from many, many years ago which I have not used.

He has eaten a bit in the past couple days, but I have toned the feedings down as he wasn't expressing much interest. He is now primarily lying down in the back of the tank behind the sponge filter. When attempting to get him to move so I could inspect him he does swim upright and as if he was fine, but I know this not to be the case as his is typically a very aggressive eater and confident fish. Will follow you around the room, blast food once it hits the surface, etc.

I noticed he did have a scrape on his side two days ago which is healing well, so I have some hope that his immune system isn't fully compromised.

I have attached a photo and a gif. These are not the best, but I do not want to rustle him too much and add extra stress. I would greatly appreciate any advice. I have read many forum posts so far and I know some people advise euthanasia, but as he is the only fish in this aquarium and my favourite I refuse to do this unless he is clearly unable to make it. A photo of this fish is up in my living room, so I would hate to lose him.

IMG-0987.jpg
 

..puSkar..

Dovii
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Ah. That's a nice fish mate. The lips look quite swollen but I'm not very sure of the disease. Maybe kno4te kno4te RD. RD. Rocksor Rocksor can help.
 

kno4te

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Usually it’s pretty lethal. Can try the neoplex and hope for the best but likely will succumb to it.
 
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MooseTheWizard

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Unfortunately he's already dead. I wish I had known about this disease earlier this week. I attributed the whiteness of his lips to abrasions from digging, and his lack of appetite due to me moving some things around in the tank, which sometimes causes him some stress and makes him not eat for a couple of days. I guess I had gotten a bit too comfortable in my fish keeping, and need to keep a closer eye on my tanks.

Here's a picture of when I first got him in 2017. This is a very sad loss for me, as he was very much a pet and I am disappointed in myself for not giving him a full life.

YkBJqPw.jpg
 

..puSkar..

Dovii
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Unfortunately he's already dead. I wish I had known about this disease earlier this week. I attributed the whiteness of his lips to abrasions from digging, and his lack of appetite due to me moving some things around in the tank, which sometimes causes him some stress and makes him not eat for a couple of days. I guess I had gotten a bit too comfortable in my fish keeping, and need to keep a closer eye on my tanks.

Here's a picture of when I first got him in 2017. This is a very sad loss for me, as he was very much a pet and I am disappointed in myself for not giving him a full life.

View attachment 1478928
Happens bud. Things go wrong sometimes.
No worries , we always learn from the mistakes.
GL 👍
 

RD.

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Sorry that you lost your fish, but sometimes even when caught early, and treated appropriately, with this disease it's already too late.


but as I am Canadian my options for medications are extremely limited thanks to a brain-dead government. The only other thing I have is some Neoplex from many, many years ago which I have not used.
The govt did the correct thing, if you are looking to lay blame, blame the millions of idjits that treat their animals willy-nilly, without the slightest clue. This should have been done many years ago. See past thread on this discussion for more info.

Fish Antibiotics Vet Only in Canada | MonsterFishKeepers.com



IMO they should have done this 40 yrs ago, this coming from someone who grew up during a time when children and their parents were handed antibiotics from the medical community like it was candy.

https://www.cahi-icsa.ca/antimicrobial-stewardship



I posted the following here on MFK several yrs ago.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23294440/

Imported ornamental fish are colonized with antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

Rose S, et al. J Fish Dis. 2013.

Abstract
There has been growing concern about the overuse of antibiotics in the ornamental fish industry and its possible effect on the increasing drug resistance in both commensal and pathogenic organisms in these fish. The aim of this study was to carry out an assessment of the diversity of bacteria, including pathogens, in ornamental fish species imported into North America and to assess their antibiotic resistance. Kidney samples were collected from 32 freshwater ornamental fish of various species, which arrived to an importing facility in Portland, Oregon from Colombia, Singapore and Florida. Sixty-four unique bacterial colonies were isolated and identified by PCR using bacterial 16S primers and DNA sequencing. Multiple isolates were identified as bacteria with potential to cause disease in both fish and humans. The antibiotic resistance profile of each isolate was performed for nine different antibiotics. Among them, cefotaxime (16% resistance among isolates) was the antibiotic associated with more activity, while the least active was tetracycline (77% resistant). Knowing information about the diversity of bacteria in imported ornamental fish, as well as the resistance profiles for the bacteria will be useful in more effectively treating clinical infected fish, and also potential zoonoses in the future.


And a follow up of that study.

https://today.oregonstate.edu/archi...industry-faces-problems-antibiotic-resistance

Ornamental fish industry faces problems with antibiotic resistance

January 15, 2013
NEWPORT, Ore. - The $15 billion ornamental fish industry faces a global problem with antibiotic resistance, a new study concludes, raising concern that treatments for fish diseases may not work when needed - and creating yet another mechanism for exposing humans to antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

The risk to humans is probably minor unless they frequently work with fish or have compromised immune systems, researchers said, although transmission of disease from tropical fish has been shown to occur. More serious is the risk to this industry, which has grown significantly in recent years, and is now a $900 million annual business in the United States.

There are few regulations in the U.S. or elsewhere about treating ornamental fish with antibiotics, experts say. Antibiotics are used routinely, such as when fish are facing stress due to transport, whether or not they have shown any sign of disease.

"We expected to find some antibiotic resistance, but it was surprising to find such high levels, including resistance in some cases where the antibiotic is rarely used," said Tim Miller-Morgan, a veterinary aquatics specialist with Oregon State University. "We appear to already have set ourselves up for some pretty serious problems within the industry."

In the new study, 32 freshwater fish of various species were tested for resistance to nine different antibiotics, and some resistance was found to every antibiotic. The highest level of resistance, 77 percent, was found with the common antibiotic tetracycline. The fish were tested in Portland, Ore., after being transported from Colombia, Singapore and Florida.

Findings of the study were reported in the Journal of Fish Diseases.

The bacterial infections found in the fish included Aeromonas, Pseudomonas, Staphylococcus and others, several of which can infect both fish and humans.

"The range of resistance is often quite disturbing," the scientists wrote in their report. "It is not uncommon to see resistance to a wide range of antibiotic classes, including beta-lactams, macrolides, tetracyclines, sulphonamides, quinolones, cephalosporins and chloramphenicol."

Problems and concerns with antibiotic resistance have been growing for years, Miller-Morgan said. The nature of the resistance can range widely, causing an antibiotic to lose some, or all of its effectiveness.

There have been documented cases of disease transmission from fish to humans, he said, but it's not common. It would be a particular concern for anyone with a weak or compromised immune system, he pointed out, and people with such health issues should discuss tropical fish management with their physician. Workers who constantly handle tropical fish may also face a higher level of risk.

From an industry perspective, losses of fish to bacterial disease may become increasingly severe, he said, because antibiotics will lose their effectiveness.

Anyone handling tropical fish can use some basic precautions that should help, Miller-Morgan said. Consumers should buy only healthy fish; avoid cleaning tanks with open cuts or sores on their hands; use gloves; immediately remove sick fish from tanks; consider quarantining all new fish in a separate tank for 30 days; wash hands after working with fish; and never use antibiotics in a fish tank unless actually treating a known fish disease caused by bacteria.

"We don't think individuals should ever use antibiotics in a random, preventive or prophylactic method," Miller-Morgan said. "Even hobbyists can learn more about how to identify tropical fish parasites and diseases, and use antibiotics only if a bacterial disease is diagnosed."

On an industry level, he said, considerable progress could be made with improvements in fish husbandry, better screening and handling, and use of quarantines, rather than antibiotics, to reduce fish disease.

The ornamental fish industry is large and diverse, including trade of more than 6,000 species of freshwater and marine fish from more than 100 different countries. About half the supply originates in Asia, and freshwater farming of ornamental fish is a rapidly growing industry.



Also increasing is the number of trained fish veterinarians, who can help fish hobbyists to reduce disease loss and save treasured pets. More information is available from the World Aquatic Veterinary Medical Association and the American Association of Fish Veterinarians. A database of aquatic veterinarians is available online, at http://aquavetmed.info
 
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duanes

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The govt did the correct thing, if you are looking to lay blame, blame the millions of idjits that treat their animals willy-nilly, without the slightest clue. This should have been done many years ago. See past thread on this discussion for more info.

Fish Antibiotics Vet Only in Canada | MonsterFishKeepers.com
Agree
Duck lips is a bacterial disease, and the gram- negative bacteria that cause it keep building resistance due to random antibiotic abuse.
People who randomly treat QT tanks or crowded grow out with antibiotics, without a known target, bring some of these infections upon themselves by creating super bugs.
Before you add any other fish to that tank, it, filters, nets, tubing, anything that touched tank water should be sterilized with bleach.
The bacterial spores that cause Columnaris can be inert, dry for months in a smudge of grit or dirt and reinfect when water is again added..
I realize this means cycling again from scratch, but it is necessary.
 
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MooseTheWizard

Plecostomus
MFK Member
Jan 22, 2017
122
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Canada
Agree
Duck lips is a bacterial disease, and the gram- negative bacteria that cause it keep building resistance due to random antibiotic abuse.
People who randomly treat QT tanks or crowded grow out with antibiotics, without a known target, bring some of these infections upon themselves by creating super bugs.
Before you add any other fish to that tank, it, filters, nets, tubing, anything that touched tank water should be sterilized with bleach.
The bacterial spores that cause Columnaris can be inert, dry for months in a smudge of grit or dirt and reinfect when water is again added..
I realize this means cycling again from scratch, but it is necessary.
It is likely too late for this. I use a submersible pump for water changes, and that pump has been used across all of my tanks before I knew the polleni was ill. As far as I am aware these bacteria are ever present in the water, and there is no way to completely purify your aquariums against these things. Nothing has come into my fish room in ages, so this bacteria has been present for who knows how long.
 
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