pairing up siblings?

[Piranhas and Cichlids]

Inbreeding happens all the time. I don't know if you guys ever think about it, but there's a very good chance that inbreeding takes place in the wild too, as well as cross-breeding. I'd bet that some of the different species that have to come to be are the result of cross-breeding in the wild.

 

[Jakob]

Im doing this with my Jags, assuming everything will be ok.

 

[dmopar74]

There were some studies done with African cichlids that showed that the detrimental effects of inbreeding weren't noticeable until the 4th generation of sibling to sibling breeding. Journal here. I wouldn't worry about anything.

Odds are most of the captive bred dovii in the states are related to the one's you got Joe (albeit distantly). As Mel said, he's estimated to have handed out at least 100,000 dovii fry over the 20+ years he's had this line.

i thought Mel had said that, but wasnt going to bring it up as im not very creditable.

i would try to avoid it, i cant see the point as you'll end up getting fry which are similar to the inbred hillbilly child off of harold and kumar escape to guantanamo bay.

the point is to get the behavior out of a pair,rather than a single male in a tank. i could care less about the fry, they will proboably just go down the toilet like all the fry i had from my last breeding pair. dovii fry are worthless in this state, cant even give em away.



anyways it was just a thought that bounced through my head. now that i know it wont be a problem in my situation, everyone please continue. interesting topic atleast.

 

[dmopar74]

another thought, what about line breeding? or breeding fry from the same parents but from a different batch? im not going to do any of this but am curious.

i also think inbreeding is happening at astonishing rates. say someone orders 6 wild dovii from rapps, if their from the same locale chances are their all siblings. im shure this happens all the time.

 

[cichlidinsomniac]

another thought, what about line breeding? or breeding fry from the same parents but from a different batch? im not going to do any of this but am curious.

i also think inbreeding is happening at astonishing rates. say someone orders 6 wild dovii from rapps, if their from the same locale chances are their all siblings. im shure this happens all the time.

i highly doubt they are all siblings if they are collected from the wild; they may be related, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they are siblings

 

[dmopar74]

i highly doubt they are all siblings if they are collected from the wild; they may be related, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they are siblings

excuse my ignorance because i dont know how fish are collected, but if 300 fish all the same size, say 2-3" are imported, would it not be safe to asume that they were all collected at once? i just dont see 25 here, 25 there, etc.. being collected from different parents and all being the same size.

i really just dont know, and would like to learn.

 

[cgronko]

I would say inbreeding happens all the time in the wild. Just image a small pond around your house, all the fish in there are eventually going to inbreed after years of being in the pond. Eventaully the original fish that were used to stock the pond are going to die and all that will be left is a whole bunch of related fry that will continue to breed and breed for years and years...

 

[Modest_Man]

excuse my ignorance because i dont know how fish are collected, but if 300 fish all the same size, say 2-3" are imported, would it not be safe to asume that they were all collected at once? i just dont see 25 here, 25 there, etc.. being collected from different parents and all being the same size.

i really just dont know, and would like to learn.

You're correct in your assumption. Granted, my only cichlid collecting comes from invasives in Hawaii, but it sure is a lot easier to net out small fry that are still with the parents than trying to catch/net larger fish. The smaller fish also ship out better and acclimate to tank life better. I'd manage to get 25-30 Hemichromis elongatus fry at the 1-1.5" range in one scoop around their parents all the time while anything larger I'd be lucky to get one, or have to use hook and line. So I'd say buying two wild fish from the same vendor at the same size there is a pretty decent chance they're siblings. Hence a big issue with the "F" system labeling wild fish as "F0". They could be related or they could be unrelated, if they're even wild. You just don't know.

Line breeding is a bit different, as you inbreed to fix a certain trait in a line and then outcross with unrelated blood to increase genetic diversity. I love genetics.

Interesting read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding

 

[villinxp]

excuse my ignorance because i dont know how fish are collected, but if 300 fish all the same size, say 2-3" are imported, would it not be safe to asume that they were all collected at once? i just dont see 25 here, 25 there, etc.. being collected from different parents and all being the same size.

i really just dont know, and would like to learn.

well there are factors when considering the term "wild" or "collected"

some importers get there fish from farms located in the areas of the natural habitat of the fish being exported. Whereas the inital fish were truely wild and almost certainly unrelated, there fry would eventually have some kind of inbreeding whether with the same batch or from a whole seperate parent batch. these inbred fry almost certainly make it to export to lfs or whomever for distribution.

 

[cichlidinsomniac]

excuse my ignorance because i dont know how fish are collected, but if 300 fish all the same size, say 2-3" are imported, would it not be safe to asume that they were all collected at once? i just dont see 25 here, 25 there, etc.. being collected from different parents and all being the same size.

i really just dont know, and would like to learn.

in the wild i believe cichlids have breeding seasons so you would be likely to find fry of similar sizes from different parents, though most of the wild fish I have seen for sale are usually larger than fry, natural selection is present outside of our aquariums and works against inbreeding that would cause genetic defects