Hello, I'm thinking about trying to grow out a few 1.5" pandas. Does anyone have experience with this size? How hearty are they? Any other advice?
Panda Uaru heartiness
- Thread starter jandb
- Start date
I have no experience, they require extremely acidic and low tds water. They are not very hardy outside of ideal conditions, not a good pick up for the average keeper.
Beetlebug515
has a long thread about his mixed success. Unless I had 5 ph 60 tds tap water (most of us won't) I wouldn't bother.
Beetlebug515
has a long thread about his mixed success. Unless I had 5 ph 60 tds tap water (most of us won't) I wouldn't bother.
They are not hardy fish. The hardest part is acclimation. They usually crash (bacterial/protozoan infection) not long after import due to improper care.
Once you have them acclimated, they are alright as long as you can provide very clean water that is soft and warm.
Once you have them acclimated, they are alright as long as you can provide very clean water that is soft and warm.
Thanks for the advice. I'm looking at wetspot. Do you feel their stock is good?
Well, a few years ago I was contacted by one of their customers to ask on their behalf what to do about all their panda Uaru crashing. To be fair, it happens a lot with fernandezyepezi, so I don't think that speaks poorly of Wet Spot's level of care. There's no telling what the fish go through between being caught, transported to an exporter facility, fasted, packaged and shipped, etc. Sometimes they come in okay and sometimes they crash, just like altum angels. It's really the luck of the draw. I think they lost all of that particular batch.
The questions to ask: how long have you had them, are they eating, can I see pictures of them? If they have clamped, cloudy fins, or any body slime or lesions, avoid them.
They usually crash 1 - 3 weeks after import, if they're going to crash. You take blackwater fish that have been born and grown in nearly sterile acidic water, then stress them out by putting them in harder/more alkaline water on central systems with other fish which exposes them to pathogens/bacteria they've never encountered in the wild, and usually they're inundated with parasites or infection. In their weakened/stressed state it's hard for their immune systems to fight it and they end up overwhelmed.
If you get them, make sure they are quarantined away from your other livestock for a long time to let them settle and adjust to their new surroundings. Keep them as stress-free as possible. Their water should be warm (84 - 86F), very clean, and changed frequently. Putting it on the acidic side (pH under 7) will also help, but stability is the key. Keep them however the seller is keeping them so they don't go through another unnecessary dramatic shift. Once you get them stable and eating you can start slowly altering the water if you need to.
Unfortunately bacteria thrive and multiply faster in warmer water, so that becomes a double-edged sword. On one hand they do best in warm water, on the other you'll be fast-tracking their demise if they have a bacterial infection. That's where the very acidic water of their natural habitat helps -- bacteria don't do well in a pH of 5.
The questions to ask: how long have you had them, are they eating, can I see pictures of them? If they have clamped, cloudy fins, or any body slime or lesions, avoid them.
They usually crash 1 - 3 weeks after import, if they're going to crash. You take blackwater fish that have been born and grown in nearly sterile acidic water, then stress them out by putting them in harder/more alkaline water on central systems with other fish which exposes them to pathogens/bacteria they've never encountered in the wild, and usually they're inundated with parasites or infection. In their weakened/stressed state it's hard for their immune systems to fight it and they end up overwhelmed.
If you get them, make sure they are quarantined away from your other livestock for a long time to let them settle and adjust to their new surroundings. Keep them as stress-free as possible. Their water should be warm (84 - 86F), very clean, and changed frequently. Putting it on the acidic side (pH under 7) will also help, but stability is the key. Keep them however the seller is keeping them so they don't go through another unnecessary dramatic shift. Once you get them stable and eating you can start slowly altering the water if you need to.
Unfortunately bacteria thrive and multiply faster in warmer water, so that becomes a double-edged sword. On one hand they do best in warm water, on the other you'll be fast-tracking their demise if they have a bacterial infection. That's where the very acidic water of their natural habitat helps -- bacteria don't do well in a pH of 5.
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I should also probably address the fact that a lot of my posts about U. fernandezyepezi on this board and Facebook come across sounding negative. There's a reason for that. These are not your average cichlid. They present a challenge. They are frustrating and usually fairly pricey, and like discus and altum angels I think a lot of people go into it with the hopes that they'll end up with a nice tank of pandas and in the end they are ready to tear all their hair out.
There's a reason why very few people successfully keep wild pandas, and even fewer still have bred them. Since I've been in the hobby (25 years or so) I have only seen F1s offered in the US one time, by Jeff Rapps back in like 2006 or 2007. I got them, they were vigorous and aggressive and beautiful, and despite presenting none of the issues that wilds often come with, they still got persistent HITH and their faces started to erode away even though they were growing and eating and otherwise acting like healthy fish. It was maddening.
So if my posts sound discouraging, it's only because I'm trying to get the point across that these are not going to be a breeze in most cases. You will have to show them special attention in terms of husbandry and water chemistry if you want them to thrive. If you have the spare cash that you're willing to risk (just in case it goes south) and you don't mind putting in the effort to stay on top of maintenance and water quality long-term, they can be a fun and rewarding fish. You just have to keep in mind that you're up against a challenging fish.
You'll get bitten by the panda uaru bug. If they don't work out, you'll re-evaluate and try again. I have a new group now. It's been three weeks and I've had to cull one but the rest seem okay. I take a deep breath every time I open the door to the fish room because I never know what I'm going to find. I've kept and bred discus for over a decade now and they are a walk in the park compared to pandas. I have a deep love-hate relationship with them. A lot of hobbyists won't touch them because they don't want the headache/heartache. But if you're up for a challenge and like to gamble, it could pay off big time.
There's a reason why very few people successfully keep wild pandas, and even fewer still have bred them. Since I've been in the hobby (25 years or so) I have only seen F1s offered in the US one time, by Jeff Rapps back in like 2006 or 2007. I got them, they were vigorous and aggressive and beautiful, and despite presenting none of the issues that wilds often come with, they still got persistent HITH and their faces started to erode away even though they were growing and eating and otherwise acting like healthy fish. It was maddening.
So if my posts sound discouraging, it's only because I'm trying to get the point across that these are not going to be a breeze in most cases. You will have to show them special attention in terms of husbandry and water chemistry if you want them to thrive. If you have the spare cash that you're willing to risk (just in case it goes south) and you don't mind putting in the effort to stay on top of maintenance and water quality long-term, they can be a fun and rewarding fish. You just have to keep in mind that you're up against a challenging fish.
You'll get bitten by the panda uaru bug. If they don't work out, you'll re-evaluate and try again. I have a new group now. It's been three weeks and I've had to cull one but the rest seem okay. I take a deep breath every time I open the door to the fish room because I never know what I'm going to find. I've kept and bred discus for over a decade now and they are a walk in the park compared to pandas. I have a deep love-hate relationship with them. A lot of hobbyists won't touch them because they don't want the headache/heartache. But if you're up for a challenge and like to gamble, it could pay off big time.
I am a bit surprised and discouraged because I didn't realize your attempt was with f1s Ryan. I was hoping these guys would do better a generation away but your story was one I've used to discipline myself to stay away from wilds. Hoping you have success with this group.
Richard, I probably would have had great success with the F1 if I'd put them in soft acidic water. At the time I wasn't prepared to do that and I foolishly thought the F1s like angels and discus would more easily adapt to higher pH. I honestly think the HITH is a direct result of the harder water. A lot of blackwater fish have this issue -- Satanoperca, the big red pikes, psittacus, etc. It's not just Uaru fernandezyepezi. But they seem much less tolerant. For instance, I had F1 psittacus and they did fine with weekly water changes in a pH of 7.6 or so. Technically if you saw the F1 pandas you'd think they were great -- pushy, bright eyed, feisty, hungry, tails wagging... but their faces looked like Swiss cheese.
If you ever get the chance for F1 and you can provide them with soft water, they'll probably thrive. They certainly are hardier in terms of acclimation than the wilds. That part was easy. But the long-term maintenance is still going to require special attention.
If you ever get the chance for F1 and you can provide them with soft water, they'll probably thrive. They certainly are hardier in terms of acclimation than the wilds. That part was easy. But the long-term maintenance is still going to require special attention.
Wet Spot is located in Portland Oregon, in another thread someone from that city was having trouble with the lack of their waters buffering capacity, and I did a google search for its tap water quality report
2016 Drinking Water Quality Report - City of Portland
You may notice although Portlands pH is in the neutral range, their water is extremely soft, and accordingly has a very low mineral content.
If your cities water is similar you may consider giving these Uaru a shot.
Beyond just softness, another thought might be to get tannins infused into the tank they would be going in a head of time, and have tannin infused water in storage for water changes.
The anti-bacterial quality of tannins seems to be a requirement for many of these sensitive soft water species.
This species had always been on my wish list, but without an RO unit to remove the minerals from my tap water that originated in the Great Lakes, successfully keeping them was "not" in the cards for me.
2016 Drinking Water Quality Report - City of Portland
You may notice although Portlands pH is in the neutral range, their water is extremely soft, and accordingly has a very low mineral content.
If your cities water is similar you may consider giving these Uaru a shot.
Beyond just softness, another thought might be to get tannins infused into the tank they would be going in a head of time, and have tannin infused water in storage for water changes.
The anti-bacterial quality of tannins seems to be a requirement for many of these sensitive soft water species.
This species had always been on my wish list, but without an RO unit to remove the minerals from my tap water that originated in the Great Lakes, successfully keeping them was "not" in the cards for me.
Thanks for all the insight and advice everyone. I'm going to take a pass right now and wait until the time is right. My interest is definitely piqued though.