PH problem....solution?

[knifegill]

This is an amazing thread. I have been using pH as a guideline for too long! So by adding sodium bicarbonate to my aquaria, am I correctly and appropriately protecting it against pH crash? My tap is too soft and drops not only from degasing (from 7.3 to about 6.5), but within a week from normal tank biological processes it can fall below 6.0. I'm done with crushed coral because of the way it exhausts itself so rapidly yet must be used in small amounts to stay reasonably within parameters for 'soft water' fish.

I add half a teaspoon per 5 gallons of new water and this holds the pH for the week at around 7.2 to 7.4, depending on a few minor factors. Is this a reasonable fix? Should I use calcium carbonate instead?

 

[Just Toby]

This is an amazing thread. I have been using pH as a guideline for too long! So by adding sodium bicarbonate to my aquaria, am I correctly and appropriately protecting it against pH crash? My tap is too soft and drops not only from degasing (from 7.3 to about 6.5), but within a week from normal tank biological processes it can fall below 6.0. I'm done with crushed coral because of the way it exhausts itself so rapidly yet must be used in small amounts to stay reasonably within parameters for 'soft water' fish.

I add half a teaspoon per 5 gallons of new water and this holds the pH for the week at around 7.2 to 7.4, depending on a few minor factors. Is this a reasonable fix? Should I use calcium carbonate instead?

What happens if, after the drop to 6.5, you leave it alone? If it stabilizes at 6.5 I would be tempted to not bother and leave alone, if it continues to drop then I would buffer....have you tried filtering through coral sand as a more natural buffer?

 

[Tor-Eriik]

I just add the coral\shell sand directly to the sand of the rays, they spray it all over the place all day long, they are a filter in themselfes those guys I had my ph drop from 7,5 to 6 in few days, after i added coral\shell sand it stays put at 7,5.. I check it somethimes, to see if the buffer is still there, and it has bin for over a year now.. I think i added 4-5 liters in my 180g..

 

[skynoch]

I think ph burn would be ammonia burn due to a low ph stopping the bacteria and causing an ammonia spike

lol, I was actually thinking most the burns classified as ammonia burns were actually ph burns.
One reason for this is I've seen pictures of an aro moved from a tank that didn't have alot of waterchanges done to it thus breaking down the minerals causing the ph to lower. The ph was around 7.2 I believe. The aro was then moved from that tank into a well established tank which had well maintained water and a ph around 8.2. The day after the move the aro was showing burns on it. The aro was not big enough for it to be a burden on the well established filter.
So bacteria will not work under low ph conditions but will they still do thier job if the tank above with minimal waterchanges and low ph was given a large waterchange with tap water that had a high kh/gh/ph, or would the bacteria die with the sudden changes?

 

[Just Toby]

lol, I was actually thinking most the burns classified as ammonia burns were actually ph burns.
One reason for this is I've seen pictures of an aro moved from a tank that didn't have alot of waterchanges done to it thus breaking down the minerals causing the ph to lower. The ph was around 7.2 I believe. The aro was then moved from that tank into a well established tank which had well maintained water and a ph around 8.2. The day after the move the aro was showing burns on it. The aro was not big enough for it to be a burden on the well established filter.
So bacteria will not work under low ph conditions but will they still do thier job if the tank above with minimal waterchanges and low ph was given a large waterchange with tap water that had a high kh/gh/ph, or would the bacteria die with the sudden changes?

Bacteria can be shocked in the same way as fish can and a large swing could cause a mini cycle, the bacteria are pretty resilient but it could lead to a spike in ammonia. If the ph was very low then the bacteria could be pretty much inactive. If the hardness was VERY different then the bacteria would need to start again just the same as going from freshwater to marine.

I remember long ago that there was a "rumour" in the fish trade that TMC (supplier) had water so good that many fish shops lost a lot of their fish as the shops were well behind on quality and the fish could not adapt...I wonder if this would work in reverse? (~TMC are excellent by the way)

 

[skynoch]

I remember long ago that there was a "rumour" in the fish trade that TMC (supplier) had water so good that many fish shops lost a lot of their fish as the shops were well behind on quality and the fish could not adapt...I wonder if this would work in reverse? (~TMC are excellent by the way)

I would think to a certain degree just like the aro mentioned above it came from a tank that had a waterchange schedule that was not up to snuff to a tank with a more frequent waterchange schedule and thus the burns. I also remember reading alot of threads on arofanatics in the stingray section awhile ago where alot of them where not changing alot of water in thier tanks to keep the ph lower and would have problems in thier tank with a large waterchange. Could be osmotic shock or ph fluctuation. lol, not sure what is the actual cause of problems now or if it's both or do you come up with a new name since they are both so closely related.

 

[Just Toby]

I would think to a certain degree just like the aro mentioned above it came from a tank that had a waterchange schedule that was not up to snuff to a tank with a more frequent waterchange schedule and thus the burns. I also remember reading alot of threads on arofanatics in the stingray section awhile ago where alot of them where not changing alot of water in thier tanks to keep the ph lower and would have problems in thier tank with a large waterchange. Could be osmotic shock or ph fluctuation. lol, not sure what is the actual cause of problems now or if it's both or do you come up with a new name since they are both so closely related.

Its an interesting point of view...there is often much talk of "mystery deaths" and I personally feel that the waste Rays produce can often cause water quality to "slip" in to the danger zone if anything less than regimented water changes are kept....humans do not want to feel at fault for the deaths so they often look for a mystery illness etc..

I feel that Nitrates are not checked often enough and have out of date or innacurate kits and people kid themselves that they "know" their water is fine.

I expect the large 50% water changes could be too much if they are not done weekly or bi-weekly, any longer interval such as one every 3-4 weeks is too much of a shock to the fish AND to the filter which throws up some odd things in chemistry which have probably subsided before the ray keeper knows something is up and therefore the panic tests do not spot the problem and the fact that they have done a massive water change makes them think that their nitrates are 20-50ppm....little did they know that this was probably 100ppm before the water change.

Many people argue 100ppm is not dangerous, I often find that the only people who truly believe this are people with nitrate above that level and this high rate COUPLED with a swing in ph or hardness etc can be enough to kill off the weakend Ray due to the nitrate.

We all know that at some level Nitrate will kill a Ray therefore levels below this must do us harm (much like saying it takes a hard hammer blow to the head to kill us therefore any blow less than that is harmless to us????)

 

[spotfin]

This is a great thread-very informative. I tested my water last night both tank and tap(drilled well) water.

tank:

GH 40 mg/l measured with the Hagen Nutrafin test kit
KH 50 mg/l measured with the Hagen Nutrafin test kit
KH 72 mg/l measured with API test kit
pH 7.8 measured with API test kit

tap:

GH 40 mg/l measured with the Hagen Nutrafin test kit
KH 80 mg/l measured with the Hagen Nutrafin test kit
KH 107 mg/l measured with the API test kit
pH 7.9/8.0 measured with the API test kit

It appears I have soft water with a fairly high pH, and lose some buffering capacity over time. Should I be concerned about the difference in KH between the tank and tap?

 

[DavidW]

Its an interesting point of view...there is often much talk of "mystery deaths" and I personally feel that the waste Rays produce can often cause water quality to "slip" in to the danger zone if anything less than regimented water changes are kept....humans do not want to feel at fault for the deaths so they often look for a mystery illness etc..

I feel that Nitrates are not checked often enough and have out of date or innacurate kits and people kid themselves that they "know" their water is fine.

I expect the large 50% water changes could be too much if they are not done weekly or bi-weekly, any longer interval such as one every 3-4 weeks is too much of a shock to the fish AND to the filter which throws up some odd things in chemistry which have probably subsided before the ray keeper knows something is up and therefore the panic tests do not spot the problem and the fact that they have done a massive water change makes them think that their nitrates are 20-50ppm....little did they know that this was probably 100ppm before the water change.

Many people argue 100ppm is not dangerous, I often find that the only people who truly believe this are people with nitrate above that level and this high rate COUPLED with a swing in ph or hardness etc can be enough to kill off the weakend Ray due to the nitrate.

We all know that at some level Nitrate will kill a Ray therefore levels below this must do us harm (much like saying it takes a hard hammer blow to the head to kill us therefore any blow less than that is harmless to us????)

do you mean NitrItes? much more deadly.

 

[Just Toby]

I think you will be ok with some crushed coral gravel in the sump as it will build the buffering.

It must be the CO2 gassing as previously talked about unless there is something odd with Chlorine and Chloramine doing something.

I think more regular but smaller water changes might be a good idea as well.

Although we have "big" tanks they are still tiny volumes of water compared to where the fish are designed to live and therefore any stability we can offer can only be a good thing.

I also wonder if ageing the water first to save the swing happening in the tank?

If you fill up the tank with a hose you might be able to make up a long pipe stuffed full of coral gravel and have the pipe run through that first but I would still beffer the tank in some way.

I do not like PH up type products as you need a constant fix.

Out of interest what is the Nitrate like out of the tap?