Plants and denitration - what's the process?

crav

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I've been doing some research, and realized something:
If we use plants, algae scrubbers, refugiums, etc, to lower nitrates, how do the plants actually reduce it?

There's some resources stating that most plants go for ammonia as a nutrient (and if there's less ammonia, less of it is converted to nitrate in the end of the process) and only a few use nitrates directly. That matters because if a filter is using up all ammonia directly, theoretically we could forego all cycling and bacteria nitrification in regards to nutrient export. It could open up a whole new way of building a sump, using more natural processes, for example.

Does anyone have some knowledge on this to clear up the question?
 

bbortko

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Potassium nitrate is your primary fertilizer for plants, you dose this 4x the amount of other ferts. All the scientific mumbo jumbo goes in one eye and out the other but this tells me nitrates are high on the consumption need of plants.
 
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philipraposo1982

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In a heavily planted tank with light stocking you can add fish right away as long as the plants are already established. The thing is it's very difficult to figure out the uptake from plants. It varies so much from.species and based on other factors like lighting co2 levels and other nutrient levels.
 

skjl47

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how do the plants actually reduce it?
Hello; My take is the plants take up nitrates and use them in the growth process. As the plants makes new leaves and such nitrates are removed from the water. A catch is there has to be new growth ongoing to have an effect.
Another catch is it seems there has to be a lot of new growth to make much difference. Not sure if this applies but back in my botany class days we would gather all the plants in a square meter of ground. We would bake it dry and measure the mass of the dried plant tissue. Not much there after it's dried.

This had led me to some recent changes in my planted tanks. I now "harvest" perfectly good live plants. By this I remove the plants from the tank. My thinking being that the nitrates bound in the plant matter has to be actually removed at some point.

For decades I only removed dead, damaged or dying plant parts. I still do that because if allowed to decay in the tank the nitrates effectively stay in the closed system.

For some plants a fish shop will give me store credit. For the fast growing plants they do not. It was hard the first time I threw out perfectly good plants, but I find I can only keep them in a bucket of tank water for so long.

If any of you happen to be near Middlesboro, KY or Harrogate TN I have a bucket of nice plants to give away right now.
 

Drstrangelove

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There's some resources stating that most plants go for ammonia as a nutrient (and if there's less ammonia, less of it is converted to nitrate in the end of the process) and only a few use nitrates directly.
I'll answer based upon what I've learned on this over the years, although I caution that I am not a biologist.

However, to answer some specifics, not all plants use each nitrogen form equally. This varies among terrestrial plants and among aquatic plants. Your confusion comes from not knowing exactly the chemical process.

Plants use nitrogen (in various forms) as a building block for plant tissue. Urine, urea, feces, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates all contain nitrogen which is why some of these are commonly the forms used to provide nutrition to plants. Afaik, most plants can use each of these, although not with equal efficiency.

I'm not aware of any plant that targets only one form, although certain plants might do so at different stages of development.

The nitrogen source for plants in a fish tank is directly or indirectly almost always the fish food which contains proteins. Fish eat the food, their digestive tracks convert the protein and expel a larghe amount of the nitrogen in the form of urine. Protein is thus the source of the nitrogen.

You won't be able to use up all the ammonia just through plants because plants don't process the ammonia the same way or as fast as bacteria. BB for example can double it's population every 8 - 24 hours, for days and days as needed provided temps, pH, food, other nutrients, and proper surface areas are present.

While unicellular algae is able to double it's population in 30-70 hours, few hobbyists want algae blooms in their tanks. And algae is an example of a plant that wants ammonia as a spore, but nitrates as a plant.

http://aquarium-fertilizer.com/nitrate-no3-and-phosphate-po4-dont-cause-algae-ammonia-does

Large multi cellular plants (pothos for example) won't double in size every 8-24 hours.

In that condition, BB will grow to take over a large part of the nitrification process. Plants will still consume the ammonia they can find, but it won't be 100%. You could of course periodically eradicate the BB, but in that case, the fish would swim in water loaded with ammonia until the plants consumed it. Then the BB would start to re-flourish, etc.

This is in fact proven in nature. Plants have not exterminated BB in soil, lakes, ponds, rivers, or oceans, precisely because plants can't out compete the bacteria for these nitrogen sources. Bacterial populations explode when there is abundance, then dwindle and go into a type of hibernation when there is little to be found.

Perhaps some one will demonstrate that algae scrubbers can act in the manner you described, but I haven't seen anyone claim they are a better choice for filtration then the ones people normally employ.
 
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crav

Feeder Fish
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Jul 16, 2017
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In a heavily planted tank with light stocking you can add fish right away as long as the plants are already established. The thing is it's very difficult to figure out the uptake from plants. It varies so much from.species and based on other factors like lighting co2 levels and other nutrient levels.
Yes, it must vary wildly with ambient conditions.
There is a member testing scrubbers as biofilters in this thread: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/algae-scrubber-as-bio-filter.670459/

Maybe it works the way he is planning it to?
 
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