Plywood, PVC Board, Dryloc, Acrylic and Illinois winters

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo

seraph

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Dec 21, 2009
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Glen Ellyn, IL
Hey guys,

got some more ideas floating around my noodle and was curious if anyone has tried it.

1) plywood tank built similar style to Nolapete's immovable object but for waterproofing, gluing closed cell PVC board to the plywood and will dryloc adhere to the board? I will be building a sump for my tanks in the next few weeks and will try it, but if anyone out there has tried it, does it work? if not, i won't even try...

2) this one is for you pond folk...ponds with viewing windows...are they only for warm climates or will they withstand an Illinois winter? Obviously it will depend on the viewing window's material...any suggestions, stories, failures or triumphs?

Thanks!
 
I have a 120g ply/drylok running for 11 months now with no issues yet. But that was drylok applied directly to plywood with seams sealed with silicone. Hope this helps.
 
http://www.grimco.com/Products.aspx?cid=0078&pid=00412
pvc board is what a lot of signs are made from. It comes in a large assortment of thicknesses. It's fairly inexpensive, hence why a lot of sign company's use it. I made a little 3"x3"x3" box out of it using pvc cement for pipes...it held water, but being so small it obviously did not have any pressure to fight. it is not glossy so it has some texture for inks and possibly drylok to grab on to. in order to increase waterproofing, I was thinking of using 3mm sheets against 3/4 ply and interlocking the sheets in the corners

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Another innovation. Can't wait to see this project started.
 
The original Drylok latex masonry waterproofer will stick to melamine so I'm fairly certain it will stick to to the face of Sintra or other expanded PVC products. I know for a fact Drylok will also stick to vinyl film which is much glossier than Sintra but probably has a similar surface energy.

But for the money I question if expanded PVC is the best choice. The only water proofing you're getting is the two thin skins on the cellular PVC interior. These skins are only 1 mil thick, IIRC. If the innermost layer is punctured water could then be forced into the interior and cause blistering or failure in a worst case scenario. If the water gets to the outside skin then you really have issues.

So while it would cause more money, I would suggest finding a solid plastic. There is solid PVC sheets and that's what a high end tank company over in Europe uses to waterproof plywood tanks. So if you used 1/8" solid PVC, for example, you'd be getting a full 1/8" of protection and impact/abrasion resistance. That's 125 mils of thickness. With 1/8" expanded PVC you'd really only be getting the 1 mil of protection that innermost skin provides. Not saying the cellular interior will let water through like a sponge but I wouldn't trust it long term if the skin failed.

If it were me I'd look for a thin plastic that can be solvent welded and skip the dryloc altogether or save it for a background where it works great. Solid plastics like PVC, ABS or the similar high impact styrene.

If you want to limit yourself to products you can find locally and top coat it with dryloc then I'd just use vinyl film from a sign shop and coat that with drylok. Small scale tests show that it will work but I haven't heard of it being used in a fish tank in over a decade. Given that adhesives change I'd want to make sure the modern stuff is fish safe, even though it would be coated in drylok.

But as much as I like the idea of two differnt protective barriers, I do think this one would get expensive. I know drylok is cheap per gallon but that is not the best way to compare costs. To truely compare costs one needs to look at the percent solids and also the required dry mil thickness of the coating. I won't get into that any further since there is not a specific recommended dry mil thickness for Drylok. I did the math on a few drylok tanks and there was quite a bit of variation on how much was used on a per square foot basis. Since I don't know how long each tank held water there is no reason to speculate further.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any further questions.
 
CJH, thanks for the input...i was hoping since it is a closed cell that it would hold up against hydro-static pressure on its own and the drylok be just an extra barrier...redundancy redundancy redundancy...maybe coat drylok between the sheets?

what is the latest verdict on using a thin acrylic sheet as a barrier, such as a 4mm which is 3 times more expensive than the pvc...obviously there can't be any give in the tank as to not break any seams (even if acrylic welding is on a molecular scale, something will have to give under pressure if the structure is not rigid enough...)?
 
There are a few options out there for you that are within the same price range that have worked for others here. Insul-x Chlorinated Rubber Pool Paint can be bought for about 40 bucks for a gallon. Muni used it to build his 300+ gallon tank and it worked quite well.

I was planning on using something I found at home depot, it's a shower liner that comes in 4x8 sheets for 22 bucks each. It is a flexible completely waterproof plastic that is about an eighth inch thick.. You can laminate it to the plywood you are working with then cut the laminated product making sure the plastic is on the up side when cutting. It should more than do the job.. you can then spray paint it whatever color you like with krylon and viola you have a tank.
 
CJH, thanks for the input...i was hoping since it is a closed cell that it would hold up against hydro-static pressure on its own and the drylok be just an extra barrier...redundancy redundancy redundancy...maybe coat drylok between the sheets?

what is the latest verdict on using a thin acrylic sheet as a barrier, such as a 4mm which is 3 times more expensive than the pvc...obviously there can't be any give in the tank as to not break any seams (even if acrylic welding is on a molecular scale, something will have to give under pressure if the structure is not rigid enough...)?

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a good chance that the expanded PVC "liner" will work. In fact I know of thin Sintra being used in shallow tanks as a base for a curved background. I was told no swelling after years of constant submersion but maybe it would be a problem in a deeper tank? I don't know. I just think that a solid plasitc is a better choice and is "proven" with PVC and ABS at least.

I just checked US Plastic simply because I know they list the prices of various plastic sheet goods without having to register, call a sales person, etc. They tend to be over priced so I don't know if they're the best place for price comparison. But assuming their mark up is similar across the board we should at least be able to tell what product is more expensive than another.

I'll list some options below. Understand you can beat these prices with some shopping.

1/8" gray expanded PVC is $66. Black and white were cheaper.

1/8" gray solid PVC is $67.

1/8" high impact styrene is $47 per 40" x 72" sheet so very similar in cost on a per square foot basis. Off white color.

1/8" black ABS is $72 per sheet. White is more expensive.

I have some more thoughts on this but have to run right now.
 
So as you can see all of those sheet good run from $2.00 to $2.25 per square foot. I think all of them, even the expanded PVC, are better choices than thin acrylic.

All of them can be solvent welded and all of them can have the corners reinforced with some sort of solid angle or bar stock.

Of course when comparing a sheet membrane to a liquid membrane you have to factor in waste. Generally speaking liquid membranes have about 10% waste when applied to a smooth surface. As the surface texture increases your waste increased but you end up with a stronger mechanical bond.

With solid sheet goods you could possibly have zero waste but even then you'd have the added cost of the adhesive to adhere the material to the plywood substrate. If your dimensions weren't some convenient multiple of 48 x 96 or 40 x 72 in the case of the styrene then you could end up with a lot of waste.

For reference, you can waterproof a smooth plywood tank with a epoxy at 10 one-thousandths of inch, or ten mils (not to be confused with millimeters). That's not accounting for waste and what you'll lose to a textured surface so let's add another ten mils, or 20 mils total. Epoxy resin is 100% solids so when it's cured it has the same thickness as it's wet coating.

So now let's picture a 48 x 96" mold that is 20 thousandths of an inch deep. That's 92 cubic inches (48 x 96 x 0.02). There are 231 cubic inches of solids in a gallon of epoxy so it would take 0.40 of a gallon to waterproof a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood.

The thin epoxy resin from US Composites has been used on a MFK build and is less than $50 per gallon depending on volume purchased. So it should take about $20 of epoxy to water proof a sheet of plywood.

So as you can see the 3 mm plastic sheets you're considering could be considerably more expensive, especially if you can't use the sheets fully. But with the plastic you're getting 125 mils of protection vs. the less than 20 mils with epoxy.

And with epoxy you have the option of adding fiberglass reinforcement to the corners or to the entire panel. Now that adds cost for the fiberglass and for extra resin to wet it out. There is information on the web about how much additional resin is needed to wet out certain fiberglass materials. Years ago the rule of thumb was the additional cost of cloth over mat and roving over cloth was a wash because mat takes the most resin to wet out, then cloth, then roving. So it was better to use cloth, for example, because it was stronger and easier to work with than mat. I don't know to what degree this is still considered true.

To briefly touch on Drylok and the Insl-X chlorinated rubber pool paint, both are about 50% solids so when you buy a gallon of it you only end up with half a gallon of cured material once all the water and other liquids evaporate. And given they need a dry film thickness at least as thick as epoxy (and up to three times as thick for some rubber products) they really end up being more expensive because they require six times as much product (three times the thickness x 1/2 the solids equals six).

Now these numbers don't always add up to how the products are used in real world situations. But it's a start if you're comparing costs.

So before I ramble on too much more, I want to say again I like the idea of a solid sheet material used to line a tank. But unless your tank dimensions cater to it the waste can be really bad. And you really need to beef up the corners. You can either solvent weld more solid material over the corners or find a caulk that makes a good seal with it. I can tell you that silicone rarely bonds as well to plastics as it does to glass.

I also like the idea of two different layers of protection, like dryloc over expanded PVC, assuming good bond strength. But that really adds a lot to the cost.

Hope this gives your some food for thought and doesn't raise as many questions as it answers. I hate that, lol.
 
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