Poll: Fish Vendor "Responsible Practices" Certification

[dogofwar]

In a discussion thread in the Central and South American area on how the ACA should deal with hybrids and other "man made" fish (i.e. line bred fish, intentional mutations, etc.), we came to some level of agreement that IRRESPONSIBLE care, breeding, and distribution/sale of both wild-type and man-made fish are the biggest problems.

Examples of irresponsible (and sadly common) practices by vendors (LFS, chains, and online) include: mis-labeling fish, incompletely labeling fish, selling hybrid/mixed/unknown fish as pure, mixing easily confused fish, making up names for fish, selling fish with lypho and other diseases, selling tank raised fish as wild or F1 fish, etc, etc.

To support this conclusion, the ACA could focus on encouraging responsible fishkeeping / distribution by both hobbyists and vendors.

I threw out the idea of the ACA running a VOLUNTARY certification program for fish vendors (LFS, online, chains) to commit to a set of "responsible practices" for selling cichlids. This is not a government program.

It is cheaper for cichlid vendors to act irresponsibly than it is for them to act responsibly. That's why irresponsible practices are so common. Many responsible vendors already build the "cost" of being responsible into their current prices. While some consumers know - and support - responsible vendors, many more do not.

The purpose of this program would be to establish a core set of "responsible practices" for the sale of cichlids (both wild-type and man-made) as well as to publicly recognize - and drive business to - vendors that act responsibly. The other goal of this program would be to encourage more vendors to understand responsible practices and invest in acting responsibly.

This all depends on the business case for vendors to act responsibly: If hobbyists are willing to pay a little more for responsible practices, then vendors will act responsibly. If hobbyists do not support vendors that act responsibly, the vast majority will not invest in being responsible.

The focus of this poll and discussion is to assess how a hypothetical ACA fish vendor "responsible practices" certification program would or would not impact hobbyist purchasing behavior.

The focus of the poll and discussion IS NOT the willingness of the ACA to take on this program or the logistics of this program. There are numerous privately run programs that mirror this except in recognizing excellence in other areas of consumer choice. The Wine Spectator's certification program is one example: http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Dining/Restaurant_Awards/Restaurant_Search_Page/0,1245,,00.html

If you already buy from a vendor/vendors that demonstrates responsible practices, you're already probably paying a little more than you would if you bought from a vendor that passes off tank raised fish as wild, doesn't segregate easily confused fish, etc.

Thanks for your input and constructive ideas!

 

[dogofwar]

Please feel free to discuss why you voted one or the other.

For example, WHY wouldn't you pay a little more for fish from a responsible vendor vs. one that is not...

 

[fishfreak69]

Dogofwar,
Responsible hobbyists should be a given within the hobby, and, I believe that they shouldn't "tack" on any additional fees of "correct id'ing" as this is already done from the farm (we are already getting nickled and dimed from the economy as it is so why start doing it in a hobby we enjoy? This can lead to people getting out of the hobby, as, I have seen an increase of fellow hobbyists getting out. DO not know if this is the reason, but, I would probably say it has something to do with finances). I purchase a lot of my stuff from fish farms, and, I know exactly what I am getting. I make sure and for certain, that I do not mix up any fish that might be misconstrued for another species. For instance, Aulonocara are one species per tank b/c you cannot tell the difference from the females and fish that are within the same genre (nimbochromis for instance) are put one per tank with another genre (protomelas for instance) to avoid any type of hybridization. Yes, hybridzation can still occur but unlikely, and the true hobbyist will be able to tell if the 2 species hybridized just by watching them. The farm should have already endured the cost of correct labeling of the fish, IMO. It isn't that hard to take a labeled bag of fish from the order you recieved and make sure you properly house these fish species only (aulonocara tank), or 2 opposite species per tank (protomelas/nimbochromis). I only deal with farms in which I trust and I have actually personally seen the setup in which I am comfortable selling a specific species as that.
There are a lot of rogue type of people in the hobby who are in it for the quick buck. That is why you see so many online vendors stumble after the first or second year b/c they don't know what they are really doing and their "bad" practices have finally caught up with them. On the other hand, you have EXTREME vendors who use this proper id'ing tactic to increase the cost of the fish some 500-800% which is usually RETAIL PRICING. I do not believe in this NOR condone this b/c you are making only the "wealthier" able to purchase some of these fish. I think that if you TRULY want to promote the hobby as an online vendor, and maybe break even (like myself) sell the fish for 2-2.5x the original cost to cover your expenses. Some of these online vendors prices are plain out absurd, IMO. Being in a "retail" setting is A LOT different because you have so much overhead to pay so you have to extract the maximum value of your investment. Yet another reason why so many mom/pop stores are going under these days is because of these reasons. Yes, I might sell some fish cheaper then the fish stores, however, I do not have a setup like a fish store that has the ability to carry a much more diverse selection. Plus, as a hobbyist, I make sure my fish are disease free before going out to other hobbyists, make sure they are pure and they are what I say they are (either by breeding or physically observing physical characteristics and comparing those findings to a wild caught specimen). I don't "have" to sell the fish I bring in, but, I enjoy doing it b/c I get to meet and talk with fellow hobbyists about certain aspects of that fish and help them with any questions they might have.

Why should we, as hobbyists, need to pay any additional fees for proper labeling/identification? This should already have been done from step one, the farm or the original place the vendor received the fish, IMO.

There are A LOT of great hobbyist vendors out there who are gung ho about making sure they are doing it right. You can usually get a grasp of how "knowledgeable" they are about the fish in general the first time you talk to them via phone or email. So, in closing, go with your gut instinct. If you feel it is not a good idea, it probably isn't. Our own personal intuition will tell us a lot!

 

[dogofwar]

Hi James,

So you're saying that the status quo is that most vendors (online or otherwise) adhere to "responsible practices" including accurate ID'ing and segregating easily confused fish?

If they're already doing this, gaining "certification" would require little or no additional expenditure on their part...and thus no need to charge more than they're already charging (which is probably a little more than vendors that don't bother with this).

It would, however, differentiate them - to consumers - from vendors that either didn't care or couldn't get certification.

I ask the question: Even if money is short...Is it better to pay $10 and get what you think you're getting...or pay $8-9 and have a much greater chance of getting something that's not what who's selling it says it is...

 

[smcknight]

I would rather go to a mom and pop store because I know their selection is smaller, but better cared for then those at a top name store. I honestly don't mind paying a little extra to get a well taken care of fish.

Though I lucked out at the Top Name store I go to because the top 2 workers there genuinely care for 'Thier fish'. Out of all the workers there, those 2 are most active. I've seen them deny customers because they weren't prepared for the fish. I respect them whole heartedly because they care.

 

[Red Devil]

i would rather pay more if i have trust in the LFS or vendor then shop where the fish are less expensive...and not properly cared for... quality is worth the extra money.

 

[fishfreak69]

Dogofwar,
I feel that indeed a vendor (either online or what not) should have the responsibility of knowing what they are selling. I for one, am sure, that I follow my own guidelines b/c I do a lot of breeding so I HAVE to make sure I know what I am doing or risk the chance of 2 years worth of work on one line, GONE.

My question wouldn't be the proper id'ing but rather the laziness of some of the vendors just selling a fish b/c it "appears" to be this variant? I mean, the vendor purchased this fish with a name from the original source whether it being a farm or another hobbyist. I would MUCH rather purchase from a hobbyist or farm (I KNOW, TRUST, and/or PHYSICALLY seen) b/c I know exactly what I am getting. I like to "stay" within people I know and trust b/c once you start straying away, you will get duked IMO.

As far as the vendors adhering to the "status quo" I don't believe this is the case. I believe that **SOME** vendors are doing anything for the dollar while **SOME** of the vendors are legit and honest. I believe that a TRUE VENDOR is doing the right thing by seperating the fish and properly naming, raising, and breeding them. You are absolutely correct about if the vendors that are already doing this wouldn't be a problem.. I am ALL in agreement that something needs to be done like this program and am GUNG HO for it, but, do not increase the price of the fish for a service that should have already been included in the original price of the fish, IMO.

My way of doing things:

1. I physically see the farm (going down there and looking at how they operate, breed, raise, feed, and house these fish)
2. If all of my **MARKERS** have been passed for a new "source" of nice fish then I put in a small order and see what happens. If the other farms don't meet my expectations I do not purchase fish from them.
3. I get the order in, and, all the bags are labeled with what I ordered from the list. I open up all of the boxes and categorize by species what goes where and stuff I do not want to mix. I usually write the fish names on the tanks where I want them to go so I know my tank logistics 2-3 days before the order even arrives.
4. Quarantine for a week with medication.
5. Pick the stuff I want and offer other hobbyists a chance to purchase some great fish after ALL of the following have been done.

**Granite, a lot of time goes into this process (for me anyways) but I do not pass the cost on the hobbyist b/c I believe this specific service should be a "status" quo in the industry, and plus I keep a lot of fish for myself for breeding/show wise. I use the "channel" for aquabidding or selling in fish forums for getting rid of *EXCESS* fish that I don't have room for b/c I want to bring other things in**

This is, of course, coming from a hobbyist that has a lot of interest in keeping many tanks and many of the different species that Lake Malawi/Tanganyika/Victoria has to offer.

 

[dogofwar]

James - sounds like you're doing (for yourself) a lot of what this program would seek to do. I'm just talking about having the scope of 1,200+ hobbyists behind it (both in market power and in-the-field resources to provide reports).

I think we're on the same page in terms of prices. Being responsible SHOULD be built into prices..."certification" shouldn't be an excuse to hike up prices.

SMCKnight: I don't think that this is about top name vs. LFS. It's about responsible practices. I think a great victory for a program like this would be for a big chain to commit to "responsible practices"...it wouldn't be easy (it's easier / makes monetary sense to be irresponsible), but it would send a message.

 

[fishfreak69]

Dog,

You are absolutely correct. If more people/ hobbyists are willing to do this, then, that will ultimately weave the bad guys out.. I am all up for it, and, educating the hobbyists also on another level WOULD BE AWESOME!!! They would actually know what to look for to depict if the species is true or not, rather, then people who "act" like experts who have 2 55g tanks..

You Maryland folks should run for President by gosh... Some of the BEST forums I have participated in has been from the Maryland hobbyists!

 

[bfhslilred93]

the only time ill ever shop somewhere irresponsible is if i really think that the fish would be better off living with me and theres a garentee on the fish living x amount of days cus if i can save it, i want to, but if it dies on me, i want my freakin money back