Poll: Fish Vendor "Responsible Practices" Certification

[dogofwar]

Thanks everyone for the input!

So far, the results are markedly different than when I posted on the Central / South American forum.

For example, 78% of respondents (more than 3/4) here said that they would go out of their way to go to responsible vendor, while just over half (58%) of those in the CA/SA Cichlid forum would.

In addition, over half (51%) here said that they would be willing to pay a little more for fish from a responsible vendor, while 26% (1/4) in the CA/SA Cichlid forum would.

Nearly 4/10 on the CA/SA Cichlid forum would avoid or not change their shopping patter based on a store's commitment to responsible practices with 9% reporting that they would AVOID a store committed to responsible practices. Roughly 2/10 on this thread would not change and NO ONE would avoid a vendor based on its commitment to responsible practices.

These differences are really interesting, for me and for vendors wondering where to focus their efforts.

One way to interpret this data would be to say that those who keep CA/SA cichlids are much less willing to respond positively - spend money at, go out of their way to support - to vendors that commit to responsible practices than those who sell other kinds of fish.

Not really encouraging news for those - like me - who view irresponsible practices by all but a handful of vendors selling cichlids as a key reason behind the poor quality of cichlids available to most hobbyists today.

 

[Miles]

Fish become mis-identified the second they are caught out of the water.. teaching fisherman who live in third world country, that catch tetra to feed their family to properly ID fish, well, could be impossible.

Also, a good majority of fish and selectively bred fish come from large private aquaculture companies from different regions all over Asia. Many of their techniques are considered 'trade' secrets, and will likely never be known by the public. Labeling of fish and hybridization starts here, and It isn't going to change or get better any time soon.


These are your 2 primary sources of Fish -BEFORE- they ever hit the hands of an Exporter, Importer, LFS or Hobbyist.. a LFS can try to 're-identify' the fish all they want, but they will never know the true genetics. If crossback breeding a Dovii with a Jag is more profiteering, then it will be done.. If a LFS wants to try to re-ID it, good luck to them..

Sadly, you will never change their ways. Mythology, Tradition, Culture, and Profiteering will have these methodologies held in place for a long time.




So you can continue to waste your time talking about ID'ing and certification of genetics, but if your resources aren't valid there really is no point.

 

[dogofwar]

"Also, a good majority of fish and selectively bred fish come from large private aquaculture companies from different regions all over Asia. Labeling of fish and hybridization starts here, and It isn't going to change or get better any time soon."

Which is why it matters - to me at least - whether the label on the front of a tank full of farm-bred fish with no provenance back to the wild is different than a tank full of fish that are F1 or F2 from a higher quality source. And that vendor staff can explain the difference.

Many people who buy fish don't care whether the fish is of unknown provenance / probably is a hybrid. Others do care. And over half in this poll say they are willing to pay a little more for them from vendors that have committed to responsible practices (like these).

"So you can continue to waste your time talking about ID'ing and certification of genetics, but if your resources aren't valid there really is no point."

I've said nothing about certifying genetics of fish. It doesn't take mapping the genome of the flowerhorn to properly label it a "flowerhorn" vs. "a trimac"...or for vendors who sell real "trimacs" as "Amphilophus trimaculatum "Rio Tehuantepec", F1) if that's what they really are.

If you believe that giving consumers better information to make better decisions is a waste of time, then you and I disagree. I know that the times that I've bought what was labeled X and it turned out to be Y, I was pissed...and the vendor telling me that the place in Asia that they bought it from labeled it wrong didn't make me any more satisfied.

What's encouraging is that over 3/4 of people who responded to this poll would go out of their way to shop at a vendor that commits to responsible practices like these...and over half would be willing to pay a little more.

 

[pcfriedrich]

some people do go out of their way and spend extra money to get fish from retailers they know practice "responsible" business.

they order online from Rapps and other dealers.

there is still no guarantee of anything, though.

i remember a thread where a guy bought a "red saum" from Rapps for some outrageous ammount. most people who looked at the pic saw nothing but a gold saum.

who's ever even really heard of a "red saum", as a different species than a gold saum?

Even Rapps, arguably the most reputable dealer in the nation, is practicing questionable business policy. at least in my opinion.

The best thing you can do is educate yourself, and make smart buying moves from dealers you trust. lets simply regulate our own individual purchases.

or, better yet, maybe I'll start breeding, make up my own imaginary governing organization, and start selling fish with "pedigrees". I'd make a fortune.

kinda like the guy who sells real estate on the moon.

 

[Miles]

mmm even if US Vendors have responsible practices, they can't prevent being lied to themselves.

and the vendor telling me that the place in Asia that they bought it from labeled it wrong didn't make me any more satisfied.

See?


The vendors in Asia won't ever change, sorry.

 

[dogofwar]

...so do US vendors have to buy from people who lie to them?

 

[fishfreak69]

NO!!!

I am a hobbyist, I buy fish from a farm down in Florida. I have PHYSICALLY seen their setup and AM VERY happy to purchase fish from them and to offer what I don't want to fellow hobbyists. Each breeding vat (roughly 150-250 of them) contains only ONE species and the 80-100 ponds they have only contain one species; until you get into the drainage pond. So, I buy from a REPUTABLE wholesaler, who then sells to me, then I sell to the hobbyist.

The people with non-legitimate practices don't care where they get the fish from but how much less it costs so that the vendor can jack up the prices on to the customer for a bigger profit margin. This is the problem; to many people are $$$ hungry, IMO... It is very EASY to do it the right way, it does not take a ROCKET scientist to figure out who is legit and who isn't. I mean, one visit to a facility and I will know whether or not I would ever buy fish from them. It all starts from the farm; deal with a reputable farm and you are golden. Deal with a sub-par farm, then you are in for some trouble... Plain and simple. As a hobbyist, do your research from who you are buying fish from.. Ask them questions; I don't mind questions, neither do other hobbyist based suppliers, and usually the ones who are open are the ones who are legitimately selling, breeding, raising the correct stuff. IMO.

 

[dogofwar]

"The best thing you can do is educate yourself, and make smart buying moves from dealers you trust. lets simply regulate our own individual purchases."

...so should this be an individual responsibility, our could the ACA and its members work together on this?

"or, better yet, maybe I'll start breeding, make up my own imaginary governing organization, and start selling fish with "pedigrees". I'd make a fortune."

This isn't a governing organization or something (like the AKC) that is seeking to "pedigree" fish. It's simply a way of a respected organization establishing "responsible practices" and providing vendors with a way of being publicly committed with them.

 

[dogofwar]

This is exactly the kind of information that would be POWERFUL for hobbysists to be able to bring to a conversation with their vendor. For example, last week a LFS by me got in a couple of shipments of fish. I asked them where they got them...and the place that they mentioned wasn't a farm that I trust. The Lyonsi that they sent also looked odd. NO SALE!

This is simply a way of expanding and publicizing that process.

NO!!!

I am a hobbyist, I buy fish from a farm down in Florida. I have PHYSICALLY seen their setup and AM VERY happy to purchase fish from them and to offer what I don't want to fellow hobbyists. Each breeding vat (roughly 150-250 of them) contains only ONE species and the 80-100 ponds they have only contain one species; until you get into the drainage pond. So, I buy from a REPUTABLE wholesaler, who then sells to me, then I sell to the hobbyist.

The people with non-legitimate practices don't care where they get the fish from but how much less it costs so that the vendor can jack up the prices on to the customer for a bigger profit margin. This is the problem; to many people are $$$ hungry, IMO... It is very EASY to do it the right way, it does not take a ROCKET scientist to figure out who is legit and who isn't. I mean, one visit to a facility and I will know whether or not I would ever buy fish from them. It all starts from the farm; deal with a reputable farm and you are golden. Deal with a sub-par farm, then you are in for some trouble... Plain and simple. As a hobbyist, do your research from who you are buying fish from.. Ask them questions; I don't mind questions, neither do other hobbyist based suppliers, and usually the ones who are open are the ones who are legitimately selling, breeding, raising the correct stuff. IMO.

 

[Mattyou]

Much the same as the Better Buisness Bureau does not attack a complaint, the ACA could simply provide a means for us, the hobbyist, to validate the reputation of the vendor. I think that this would be an excellent idea, as I have purchased the wrong fish on several occasions back before I was able to properly identify on my own, and the results were usually always negative.