Rate my Ornate

[BuffaloPolypteridae]

Posted a couple pics of him, you can barely tell but in the one pic my red hi fin wolf is trying to pile w/ them haha

Point of this is, how CB does this guy look? Comparing him to WC ornate he looks pretty similar, my buddy bred his wild pair out and i bought the biggest strongest one, it was his first brood. Have had it for about a year and its gone from 3 inch to just under 8 inches. So the growth rate is pretty good (he was grown out in a 30, moved to 55 at about 4 inch, moved to 70, being moved to at least 200 ga in early spring). Im just hoping this guy doesnt show some of the typical CB traits some CB polys have, like those spinal problems. He doesnt look to be very CB-froggy looking, what do you guys think?

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[Dr.B]

If your friend bred WC ornates and this one is F1 then it won't have those mass bred CB traits.

 

[Owens]

Looks nice, either way ornates tend not to have the defects of the more common cb species like endlis or Senegals.

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[-DC-]

Looks good!

I agreed, it's normally those mass produced CB ones that have problems. and I dont really believe at all that the problems people have with CB bichirs has anything at all to do with weak genetics. I'm sure it has to do with the care given especially diet when young. Mass produced farm CB's likely get the cheapest generic food possible and spend the beginning of their lives in over crowded tanks and shipping bags if their are any issues this is the most likely cause. With that said I'm sure in most cases the issues blamed on them being "CB" is just a BS excuse for people who screwed up some how and either dont want to admit it or more likely dont even realize it!

I would suspect that if anything a CB one from a personal collection that's cared for from the start would actually be better suited then a WC one for tank life.

 

[mike_sema]

Looks good!

I agreed, it's normally those mass produced CB ones that have problems. and I dont really believe at all that the problems people have with CB bichirs has anything at all to do with weak genetics. I'm sure it has to do with the care given especially diet when young. Mass produced farm CB's likely get the cheapest generic food possible and spend the beginning of their lives in over crowded tanks and shipping bags if their are any issues this is the most likely cause. With that said I'm sure in most cases the issues blamed on them being "CB" is just a BS excuse for people who screwed up some how and either dont want to admit it or more likely dont even realize it!

I would suspect that if anything a CB one from a personal collection that's cared for from the start would actually be better suited then a WC one for tank life.

I strongly disagree with 98% of your post. I will not get into a battle of wits on the subject just stating I do not agree.

Op that is a good looking ornate.


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[BuffaloPolypteridae]

Looks good!

I agreed, it's normally those mass produced CB ones that have problems. and I dont really believe at all that the problems people have with CB bichirs has anything at all to do with weak genetics. I'm sure it has to do with the care given especially diet when young. Mass produced farm CB's likely get the cheapest generic food possible and spend the beginning of their lives in over crowded tanks and shipping bags if their are any issues this is the most likely cause. With that said I'm sure in most cases the issues blamed on them being "CB" is just a BS excuse for people who screwed up some how and either dont want to admit it or more likely dont even realize it!

I would suspect that if anything a CB one from a personal collection that's cared for from the start would actually be better suited then a WC one for tank life.

I'll take this one Mike, thank you all for the comments on the Ornate! I never got an opinion on whether he would portray those CB traits or not so I figured what the hell. Now I won't worry about a random hunch or something

DC, I don't agree with you simply because inbreeding happens on farms, which is scientifically proven to weaken genetics. Why else would only CB polys get that spinal hunch or watery bloat that nobody's seen in WC before? I do agree that if a farm did take the initiative to not inbreed then yes it would be due to poor maintenance in early life. BUT the setup of most of the mass producing farms is as you said not very good and could be the cause of the issues people have w/ CB.

It doesn't make any sense to me that I've grown a CB Senegal out to 10 inches never got sick one, then got that weird watery bloat that a lot of them get and it died when NOTHING else in the tank was showing signs of stress.

Then I got a baby and it died for seemingly no reason again, being fed hikari and chopped worm, while my ornate who I got at the same time is as you see now. I've grown out the Ornate and my first Sen from 2-3 inches, I know how to care for these fish haha

Then I got another baby because I felt bad for it like 2 months ago, and that died for no reason when all the rest of the tank was fine, and the dead sen itself looked normal, had hikari mush in the stomach wasn't bloated or any white spots, was feeding just fine, params were fine. I'm religious about my WC schedule and daily maintenance. You posted in the thread about this certain case DC. It was eating regularly and was actually death rolling small worms a few days before death haha.

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[bfin3]

As a biologist with a lot of training in genetics I have to say that there is absolutely no reason a cb with wc parents would have any genetic differences than any wild polypterus. It would take many generations, probably more than 15, of inbreeding to accumulate enough homozygous recessive traits that are undesirable before any real change in phenotype would be seen. Problems would be far more likely to just be bad luck or owner negligence. In your case the one you got will not be inbred nor will it have gone through the stress of shipping so it should be an especially healthy specimen and I would expect it to be very impressive in adulthood.

 

[mike_sema]

Well bfin3 you are correct a cb with wc parents will look just the same as a wild caught one ,,when we bring up cb it is in mostly endilicheri witch have been hormonally inbreed to the point of down right looking retarded, with plenty of issues to go around,,some get lucky some don't,,kevin and I call it a time bomb waiting to happen. Being a biologist with lots of training in genetics dose not over ride what people see every day and have actual experience in.


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[bfin3]

Mike our ideas do not contradict each other I am just saying that inbreeding takes a few generations. The specific fish in this thread is not inbred at all and should be indistinguishable from wc given the proper care and space.

 

[-DC-]

Well bfin3 you are correct a cb with wc parents will look just the same as a wild caught one ,,when we bring up cb it is in mostly endilicheri witch have been hormonally inbreed to the point of down right looking retarded, with plenty of issues to go around,,some get lucky some don't,,kevin and I call it a time bomb waiting to happen. Being a biologist with lots of training in genetics dose not over ride what people see every day and have actual experience in.

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LOL... people see and experience all sorts of things they can't explain or dont understand.... I'll trust the science

I'm also not arguing bad gene's can't happen, Inbreeding sure that's possible and can take it's toll over time, and of course being CB eliminates a lot of the natural selection that would take out the weaker individuals in the wild hence albinos,plat's, shot bodies etc.

With that said, this chance that it could be the cause doesn't mean every cb death is because of bad genes . It's far more likely that environmental factors like diet and care are probably the bigger issue in most cases. Could have been the breeders or with the owners. But when someone can't explain/understand it they google it, they read CB is bad and say "there you have it, bad genetics that killed my bichir" because they dont understand what went wrong or dont want to admit they may be the cause but that google answer gives them the easy blame free excuse.

But it's all just opinions now isn't it, ironically you'd need someone with the training in genetics to test these CB animals in order to see what the truth is and not people speaking off of what they see and believe...