RD complex breeding discussion...particularly xiloaensis

[Jason_S]

I've been having a discussion via PM with jgentry recently about breeding with Amphilophus xiloaensis and figured we might as well put it out here in the forum so that others can learn from the discussion as well as throw in their experience.

Right now we're discussing how old xilo's have to be before they start breeding and what color patterns are often seen.

 

[Jason_S]

I ordered my xiloaensis from Rapps last February. 2 of them are in my avatar, jworth has the other male and the 4th one I received unfortunately died a couple weeks ago. Jeff Rapps has mentioned numerous times that his throw all sorts of color patterns with varying shades of orange, white, yellow, red and or black. What I am trying to do is get at least one to grow out that has at least some, but preferably a decent amount of black piebalding.

the last question I posed to jgentry is this: would breeding a barred to a colored increase the likelyhood of piebaldness, or would it more likely lead to a percentage of colored and a percentage of barred?

any input from RD complex breeders welcome

Oh and also, I'm trying to gauge how old xilo's and saggitae are before they become interested in breeding. My pair has shown signs of courtship but have not laid eggs yet and to be honest, I'm not 100% sure the smaller one is in fact female and not a subdominant male. I lean towards female but don't know for sure. I've spoken to a couple other members who got xilo's around the same time I did and theirs also have yet to spawn. Any input from those who have raised xilo or saggs from juvenile to breeding age would be appreciated.

 

[Aquanero]

Wouldn't they be the same as any Midas about 5-6", I would think.

 

[Aquanero]

sorry I didn't see the second post when I was typing but IDK about the pattern crossing with a barred. You might some of all three types and then have to selectivly breed to fix the type.

 

[Jason_S]

yeah my male is pushing 10" SL and the female about 5" SL I'd say but they are the same age. They're clearing out all kinds of pits all over the tank but then again they've done that for several months now but no spawning.

 

[Modest_Man]

The midas complex color changes don't follow simple Mendelian genetics so predicting what could happen is beyond me.

There are a lot of old scientific journals on midas' out there that deal with their polychromatism which might help you out.

The midas cichlid,Cichlasoma citrinellum, occurs in the lakes of Nicaragua. In semi-turbid to turbid lakes about 8% of the adults are amelanic, having lost their melanophores at various ages, and are thus yellow through red and sometimes white. The commonest hues are yellow through orange, called gold. Gold morphs ought to be selected against because they are probably conspicuous to predators and they cannot communicate by changing markings. To maintain the polymorphism, gold coloration must have offsetting advantages. Gold morphs dominate normal ones of equal size, and that improves their access to limiting resources. Gold morphs, however, do not seem to be intrinsically more aggressive but rather attain dominance through the effect of their color on their opponents. This gold effect is affected by experience; it is enhanced by sharing the color of the dominant fish in a group, and by being rare. The midas cichlid mates assortatively but imperfectly. Choice of mate is influenced by color of self and of parents and can be constrained by size-color relationship.

Link

We describe the histological basis of color metamorphosis in the polychromatic Midas cichlid, Cichlasoma citrinellum. Eight percent of the individuals in a natural population transform from gray with black markings to orange, simultaneously losing their ability to adjust coloration in response to background and social context. This trait is inherited. Light- and electron microscopy revealed that this transformation is a two-step process. First, the melanophores die, then macrophage-like cells remove the debris. As a result of this initial process, the underlying xanthophores become visible, producing the orange coloration. A similar process may occur in individuals that further transform to white, or go directly from gray to white.

LINK

 

[Anubisscott]

Very intresting discussion Jason. I beleive it could be possible, but I doubt it will be easy. Piebalds seem to just stop mid peeling. Even Midas like mine and Modest_man's retain some coloration from their natural barred form. Be intrestng to see if you could. Perhaps if you ordered some Barred and bred then you would get lucky.

As far as breeding, I am sure it would depend on the fish aswell as size.
I would say like most Amphilophus it is around the 7-9Month mark and 5-6" in length. It Takes about 2-3 Months for Amphilophus fry to reach 1" and really start taking off in growth. Then averaging Half an inch to an inch per month is where I get the age. Midas, Trimacs, and Red Devils have all started showing intrest in breeding and have produced fry as far as my Midas and Trimac pairs have gone around 5". The Trimac pair the female was around 4" when she started showing intrest, around 5" when they finally did. My current Midas pair were 5".

Modest_Man, nice links. I think I may throw them on our Amphilophus Facebook page.

 

[Anubisscott]

Also to bad we have to type these discussions. If anyone ever wishes to do a group discussion I have a ventrilo server for gaming. Would be cool to do.

 

[Modest_Man]

Just search Google Scholar for "midas cichlid" there are all sorts of studies done on the midas complex dealing with color, mate selection, aggression, etc.

I used to have access for free when I was in college, they're interesting reads.

 

[Anubisscott]

Just search Google Scholar for "midas cichlid" there are all sorts of studies done on the midas complex dealing with color, mate selection, aggression, etc.

I used to have access for free when I was in college, they're interesting reads.

I'll definently do that. If your in our Facebook group(unsure if you are) feel free to post someof this stuff on the wall.