Rectic Trouble

[sam buckle]

There is no need to worry about nitrates. Proven already that rays are able to thrive and breed in nitrate levels up to 300 ppm. Only thing you really need to worry about parameter wise is ammonia and nitrite.

ditto this, i used to live in an area with 90ppm nitrate and i had retics thriving in tank water around the 150 mark. i am not saying do this on purpose. i was doing daily water changes of 25/30% there are other organics that build up as well as nitrate that need reducing.

also i know for a fact that some of the large public aquarium shark tanks run above 500ppm and there sharks breed succesfully.

i had two motoros die within a month of each other with exactly the same symptoms as yours in a large well maintianed tank which also contained a flower ray and a motoro( from the same shipment).
i carried out an autopsy on both rays and they showed no abnormalites internally aprt from both had slight granulation in the liver.

i suspect your is suffering from some internal problems stemming from the poor conditions you kept it in when you first got it(i am assuming this is the same retic you had in a 3 foot tank) and also the problems it had feeding.

i am only trying to be helpfull but a complete list of water paramters would be usefull and also check your ph out of the tap. then check your ph at night , in the morning then an hour after feeding. i had been suffering ph crashes in my tank the month before my rays died, so just a theory. the two rays that were fine in my tank were both considerably larger than the ones that died.

 

[Just Toby]

Hmm, not wishing to argue but we are talking about Retics here therefore my point is that I suspect they are more sensitive to Nitrate until another explanation comes along for why they die so often.

I would also suggest that as much as there is evidence to support high nitrates being ok, there is enough fishkeeping evidence to support the opposite too.

I have lost sensitive fish to Nitrates.

In the recoemmneded Ray book by Aqualog they suggest that Nitrates are an issue

In answer to the posters recent question...if your nitrates are 50 in the tank and 10 in the tap then simple water changes will reduce this.

 

[Just Toby]

In addition:


Year ago I ran a LFS and we kept having PH crashes, I looked to the support of our main supplier and after a LOT of testing they felt that it was strong Nitrates in the tap water (over 100) at the time and they felt this was upsetting the water chemistry....I would ask a chemist to chime in here but there is a weak link from the chemistry of Nitrate and ?Phosphate to the control or buffering of (PH I think)

I agree with the other poster that tests of PH in tap and then intervals in the tank would be beneficial.

FROM another thread:

Not really sure.... I don't do a whole lot of water testing, I'm one of those raykeepers with perfect water I never have ammonia or nitrite. Nitrate? What's that? No thanks never had it.... Kidding of course, but not about the fact I don't test.

I can't explain it. All I know is my pups can't deal with it. I personally think it's just spikes associated with regular feedings. I don't feed overly heavy, just have some big rays. Feedings are between 1 and 2 lbs depending on the frequency (everyday, or every other. Ponds around 800 gallons. I push between 150 and 250 gallons of new w)ater through there a DAY via drip system, so obviously spikes aren't caused from WCs. Have 6 rays in there.....

All I know is IF I left my pups on the pond system I doubt I'd have any left after the 1st month. Each time the pup tank has had it's own filter and a pump pushing pond water through.... Both times pups started acting stupid within 3 days to a week of being born.

I think this answers a debate that we are haing on another thread.

You cannot say that you do not have a problem with nitrates and then in the same reply that you do not test, how would you know?

My other point is that I think the reason that pups cannot tolerate your parental system is the nitrate is too much for them but the stronger adults have been in the water for a long time and therefore used to it. You may find that a large adult droppen in to your water could not handle it either due to the sudden change.

NOTE: I really do not want to be argumentative but I am a firm believer in the KISS principle, get PH, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate in control and you can keep pretty much any fish alive.

 

[sam buckle]

i completely agree with toby about the kiss method.
where is nic when a thread like this starts!lol

toby i dont doubt you are an experienced fishkeeper but not with rays.

retics are no more sensitive than any other ray.
the reason you hear about so many of them dying is they are poorly imported at a very small size then sold to beginners with little or no experience of fishkeeping.
This combined with people underfeeding/poorly feeding kills them.

The same people who then rush onto here for advice too late then dont listen when given advice.

nitrates alone will not kill them. the other factors associated with poor aquarium management/water change regime is what will do it. ie ph crashes etc.

while working at woking maidenhead aquatics the retics there were kept in the sump tank on a system. the tap water at the time ran at about 110ppm the water change system ran untreated mains water directly into the sump resulting in a temp drop from 28 down to 22. nitrates on the system ran at above 125 most of the time.

these rays always thrived , but they were fed bloodworm 5 or 6 times a day and ghost shrimp 2 times a day.

also dont confuse the sudden die off of red caqueta(red retics) with regular retics.

with regards ph crashes , the reason they are so bad is that the filter bacteria responsible for processing Nitrite instantly stop functioning below ph 5/5.5 so even if the spike is just for an hour or so the nitrite can rise rapidly due to the amount of waste rays produce(ammonia reducing bacteria function down to ph 4.5). if this is combined with a dirty filter media with a high need for oxygen aquarium conditions can be fairly awefull for a few hours then right themselves before you test again.

anyway back to madelfs question we still need more info/history of the ray if we are to help you?

only here to help



the aqualog book is good but massively outdated

 

[Just Toby]

Hi Sam,

Thank you for the reply. Which I agree with.

Simon Hewitt from maidenhead is the guy who lost the Retic. Paul from Farnham also concurrs about Nitrate as does the chap from Windsor branch who breeds and sells through Maidenhead.

I agree Aqualog is out of date but if they suspected Nitrate to be an issue and most books of that era say Nitrate is not an issue it adds to the argument.

You are correct I am very experienced in FW and Marine but NOT Rays.

I agree that most Retics die due to the shipping etc but that does not explain the suddent deaths of long term individuals

I was one of the first in UK to breed Tanganikan Leopard eels (not heard of any other breeder in fact) only to lose the parents stupidly to a missed wc when away for 3 weeks and the only explanation was Nitrate off the chart (over 100)

MBU puffers follow the same fate if the nitrates rise fast enough, not so much in longer term issues.

I guess what I should have started with is that probably 90% of all fish deaths are due to poor water of some sort...they may die of disease but the cause of disease is normally brought on by poor water.

I will get off my soap box now but appreciate the input on this thread

 

[mad_elf]

hi guys,thanks very much for ure input,much appreciated.but i have some bad news,my rectic died this morning,im so gutted.this was my first ray and i agree i was a bit under prepaired,but i have learnd alot from all u guys,so thanks.

 

[sbuse]

sorry about the ray, but they do that...

as to retics being more sensitive to water quality really doubt it...i had 10 retics, lost 8 of the and sold the last 2 before they could die...i lost a few to random death...now if the cause was hight nitrates the how would they have died with my nitrates never getting above 10ppm?...95% of the time i was in the 5ppm to not readable...

the other rays that died were from shipping problems and douch bag tankmates...

 

[earthstudent]

I am guessing there are dozens upon dozens of reasons people have problems with retics. I don't see them in LFS in my area very often or any ray for that matter. When I do see and ask questions about them I get very upsetting info back. They do not know what the hell they are talking about. Providing misinformation to get the ray sold! Telling people it will be fine in a 55g with a few other tank mates, with aragonite as substrate! And the poor buyer is wondering why it dies?

I will admit that the buyer should do there own research about any animal they plan to acquire, but in many cases the customer relies on the LFS for "professional" advise. I have found that LFS are a main contributor in many fish deaths.

I am quite astounded at the info they have told me about many fish not just rays. I was even told one time that a red tail cat would only get about 18in long! I told the guy that he was mistaken and that they can get well over twice that. His reply was "I doubt that, but people would not buy them if they knew they got that big"! My jaw almost hit the floor! I had a feeling he knew the truth but was not going to tell people.

 

[Gshock]

Im with Sbuse. I doubt they are more sensitive to water conditions at all. They're the cheapest rays in the market. I'm not surprised that they get shipped in rediculous quantities to one box unlike more expensive rays like motoros. Wholesalers and exporters basically lose nothing if a couple retics die on the way so they don't bother to care for them at all. All this accumulated damage means you usually end up with a ray thats already half dead. Like Nic started, the KISS method I believe is the most stable way to go. Theres really no need for a test kit after your tank is stable if you use the KISS method.

 

[Just Toby]

Gshock, The only problem with saying that just KISS is ok is that 1) People slip overtime and allow parameters to slip too, if I skipped a w/c for 3 weeks with my heavily stocked africans the water would be off the chart for nitrates. My tap water is just "trace" nitrate out of the tap.

Old Tank syndrome is a real fishkeeping problem which can allow the PH to drop off and as per sam buckles post the bacteria fails when it gets too low. If you are not testing, your tap water has high nitrates and you skip the odd water change how would you ever know without testing?

I agree that Retics die young due to shipping but that does not explian why people lose them after keeping them for a few years.

Sorry to hear you lost the retic.