Red Devil color change

[Aquanero]

They were perfect pics to make the point and I can't upload them! I'll try again later.

 

[Modest_Man]

Use a third party like Flickr or Photobucket and it works just fine.

 

[RD.]

Fair enough MM, perhaps not the best example to use.

Ok, here's an RD/Midas cross that I used to own, fed 100% NLS - and raised indoors. Now imagine that the orange went from one end of the fish to the other - would it be any less vibrant than the one in Chris' photo? BTW - I had no idea that Chris was banned.

 

[vfrstephen]

Fair enough MM, perhaps not the best example to use.

Ok, here's an RD/Midas cross that I used to own, fed 100% NLS - and raised indoors. Now imagine that the orange went from one end of the fish to the other - would it be any less vibrant than the one in Chris' photo? BTW - I had no idea that Chris was banned.

Thats a nice devil if the orange/red went through out the body it would be ideal.
To me the white on devils dont look so good but orange/red is nice.

 

[Modest_Man]

Fair enough MM, perhaps not the best example to use.

Ok, here's an RD/Midas cross that I used to own, fed 100% NLS - and raised indoors. Now imagine that the orange went from one end of the fish to the other - would it be any less vibrant than the one in Chris' photo? BTW - I had no idea that Chris was banned.

Yeah, sad when one of the most knowledgeable guys around gets banned because he doesn't want people to get hoodwinked by vendors.

Good looking mutt. I have noticed that for some reason midas complex fish with white do tend to have RED instead of orange. There aren't defined white and orange fish, just white and red. No idea why. Has anyone else noticed this? People tend to call them "creamsicles". I had a similar looking male at one time.

Let's just face it that being a polychromatic species it's almost impossible to say if the color is enhanced by feeding a certain food or not.

 

[RD.]

Hopefully Chris will be back here soon, he's always been a tremendous asset to this site.

I've always considered the white/orange variants to be just that, white & orange, hence the "creamsicle" name. Some are simply more vibrant orange, unlike the one that you have pics of where the fish actually looks red. (until it landed in your tank)

Let's just face it that being a polychromatic species it's almost impossible to say if the color is enhanced by feeding a certain food or not.

What does being polychromatic have to do with anything?
I've seen plenty of polychromatic species of fish that have gone from zeros to heros by simply fine tuning their diet.

While I'll admit that genetic make up has far more to do with overall coloration in species such as Amphilophus, carotenoid content of the diet will most certainly also play a role. How large of a role will depend on the individual fish, as well as both the levels & types of color enhancing agents used in the feed.

My initial comment was simply to explain that with most Amphilophus, there is a breaking point where adding "extra" astaxanthin (via krill, or even straight astaxanthin powder such as Naturose) to a diet such as NLS will offer no real gains. Been there, done that.

An interesting read on this very subject.

Testing the carotenoid trade-off hypothesis in the polychromatic Midas cichlid, Amphilophus citrinellus.

Abstract

Many animals use carotenoid pigments derived from their diet for coloration and immunity. The carotenoid trade-off hypothesis predicts that, under conditions of carotenoid scarcity, individuals may be forced to allocate limited carotenoids to either coloration or immunity. In polychromatic species, the pattern of allocation may differ among individuals. We tested the carotenoid trade-off hypothesis in the Midas cichlid, Amphilophus citrinellus, a species with two ontogenetic color morphs, barred and gold, the latter of which is the result of carotenoid expression. We performed a diet-supplementation experiment in which cichlids of both color morphs were assigned to one of two diet treatments that differed only in carotenoid content (beta-carotene, lutein, and zeaxanthin). We measured integument color using spectrometry, quantified carotenoid concentrations in tissue and plasma, and assessed innate immunity using lysozyme activity and alternative complement pathway assays. In both color morphs, dietary carotenoid supplementation elevated plasma carotenoid circulation but failed to affect skin coloration. Consistent with observable differences in integument coloration, we found that gold fish sequestered more carotenoids in skin tissue than barred fish, but barred fish had higher concentrations of carotenoids in plasma than gold fish. Neither measure of innate immunity differed between gold and barred fish, or as a function of dietary carotenoid supplementation. Lysozyme activity, but not complement activity, was strongly affected by body condition. Our data show that a diet low in carotenoids is sufficient to maintain both coloration and innate immunity in Midas cichlids. Our data also suggest that the developmental transition from the barred to gold morph is not accompanied by a decrease in innate immunity in this species.

 

[vfrstephen]

Interesting article, thanks for posting.

 

[Modest_Man]

Very interesting read. Is the full article available for free or just the abstract?

"In both color morphs, dietary carotenoid supplementation elevated plasma carotenoid circulation but failed to affect skin coloration".

If dietary carotenoid supplementation has no affect on coloration (which I always thought it did) what ingredients increase color?

The article doesn't say anything about a breaking point, saturation, or plateau. Just that it doesn't affect color.

 

[bassman42]

Just curious, What about black? I see a lot of talk of white, red, or orange. If an RD complex fish keeps the black from juvenile color what's that mean? For example I have a pack of 4 Amp. Xiloensis, the biggest 2 are 7" the middle is like 5" and the smallest is like 4". 3 of the 4 are in piebald faze and the middle one is still in juvenile/barred faze, eat a diet consitant of krill, shrimp, hikari pellets, and frozen fish. Any insight on that color change? They live in a 400 with quite a few tank mates pbass, oscars, amrillos, festea, arowana, and polypterus.

 

[RD.]

All I could get my hands on was the abstract.

A couple of things to keep in mind .......

1. they also stated the following;

Consistent with observable differences in integument coloration, we found that gold fish sequestered more carotenoids in skin tissue than barred fish, but barred fish had higher concentrations of carotenoids in plasma than gold fish.

2. without knowing the level of carotenoids used, and the specific forms of each type, the study doesn't exactly present an open & shut case.

There are numerous forms of beta-carotene, and numerous raw ingredients that could fall under that umbrella, both natural forms, and synthetic. I'm quite certain that they didn't experiment with every form out there.

All species of tropical fish have a breaking point when it comes to carotenoids, at least as far as color enhancement goes.


bassman ......... With regards to the black pigment - it becomes a case of genetic make up, not diet.