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Also if your testing high nitrates it could mean you missed an ammonia spike as well which also leads to tatted apearence and red lines in the fins and/or gills or eyes depending on how sever the spike is... What sized tanks is this ? how often do you do water changes and whats the stock like ?

It is possible that I did miss an ammonia spike. When I first tested, I only tested nitrates and when it read very high, I added the Prime (and yes i know, wrong remedy! ) but it is possible the ammonia was high as well...so when i did get around to testing the ammonia with the appropriate test, it looks to be around 0.25ppm.

I had gone three years without ANY water change, other than adding replacement water. In the past, when I did a water change, it seemed like it actually had a detrimental effect on the RTC I had at the time (lethargy, whiskers going ragged, blood marks ,etc.) He would eventually recover, but I thought I was doing more harm than good.
Interesting that you mention the ammonia spikes causing the symptoms I just mentioned. Leads me to believe that replacing water actually caused the ammonia spike, which in turn made it seem like the water change was the problem for the RTC, but in fact it was due to the pH raising when I added the new water, which in turn i think can jack up the ammonia level.

The tank now has a 10" Jaguar, 12" Pleco, and a new 6" RTC. 150 gallons
 
It is possible that I did miss an ammonia spike. When I first tested, I only tested nitrates and when it read very high, I added the Prime (and yes i know, wrong remedy! ) but it is possible the ammonia was high as well...so when i did get around to testing the ammonia with the appropriate test, it looks to be around 0.25ppm.

I had gone three years without ANY water change, other than adding replacement water. In the past, when I did a water change, it seemed like it actually had a detrimental effect on the RTC I had at the time (lethargy, whiskers going ragged, blood marks ,etc.) He would eventually recover, but I thought I was doing more harm than good.
Interesting that you mention the ammonia spikes causing the symptoms I just mentioned. Leads me to believe that replacing water actually caused the ammonia spike, which in turn made it seem like the water change was the problem for the RTC, but in fact it was due to the pH raising when I added the new water, which in turn i think can jack up the ammonia level.

The tank now has a 10" Jaguar, 12" Pleco, and a new 6" RTC. 150 gallons




If you go prolonged times withing changing the water the buildup of biological waste will effect the PH, and yes then doing a big water change could cause a swing which certainly could cause issues but if you do proper water changes on a regular basis the levels should never build up that high to begin with and the tank will stabilize at roughly the same PH as your tap water.

The only way it would cause an ammonia spike wold be if your using chlorinated water and not using dechlorinaor which would mess up the cycle on the tank. . I dont want to come off harsh but to be honest after reading that I'm a bit shocked your not running into more problems.

I would start doing frequent but SMALL water changes, that's the trick to doing water changes and not running into swings and risks, just stick to frequent 10-15% changes over infrequent large ones and it'll keep the water parameters in the tank closer to those in the tap so water stays clean and stable.

What type of filters ?

Hope that helps,
 
Two Aquaclear 110's. One usually has the charcoal bag, and the other an ammom-rid. I realize that my practice had not been the "norm", yet I have had the same fish for 8 years now. They are large though and it is possible that they got acclimated to these conditions, whereas a new (much smaller) fish cannot handle it.
You're probably right about the chlorine in the past playing a role. I used to pump new water into the tank, then let some out, and repeat...so it was not dechlorinated. All the other fish had no effect from this, except like i said the large RTC showed some signs.(if i would do more than 10% change). Anything less, no problem. Nowadays when i have been topping off the tank, it is with a 5 gal bucket and a capful of StressCoat, so I can at least say the water is now dechlorinated that i put in. (trouble is, i never took any out)
 
What fish are you keeping and what size tank to keep nitrate under 20ppm? Can you back up what you're saying with some facts?

This is common knowledge, Matty, AFAIK. Thanks to the guys for chipping in. Most rivers and large lakes etc. are either very low in nitrates or have essentially zero nitrates. Most nitrates, sadly, come in with the fertilizer run-off from farming.

What facts would you like? My nitrates are almost never over 10 ppm. I do not run experiments with my fish to study the effect of higher nitrates on them. Through the years, the usual number of fish I keep is about 200-500 of all various kinds. My tanks and ponds total ranges from 5,000 to 50,000 gal. I've been running a large-fish rescue for many years. I still make plenty of stupid mistakes too :)
 
...I dont want to come off harsh but to be honest after reading that I'm a bit shocked your not running into more problems...
Right. IMHO, you need to learn a lot of things, friend, about the hobby... unless you are doing all these things to your fish on the basis of some knowledge. Yes, some people do not change their water for decades, e.g., see here about two syno euptera that have not seen fresh water in 30 years, pretty much: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27069
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39046

... but it is still backwards, I think. You are totally free to do whatever you want and disregard our opinions, but since you've started sharing and if you asked for mine... at the face value of what you told us so far, IDK how to say it gracefully and non-offensively... your fish are not kept humanely.

For you to understand how your RTC felt during your water changes with chlorinated/chloraminated water: it's as if someone would fill the room you are in with toxic, lung-burning smoke, causing you to cough, gag, and burning good portion of your lungs and the mucus layer, etc. pretty much half-killing you, but you'd survive, recover more or less... until the next round.

Chlorine/chloramine burns the fishes gills bad and the fish starts to suffocate and suffer from oxygen deprivation.

It is not that you are doing things out of the "norm" as you said. It appears you need to learn the basics of fish keeping.

Your bio-filtering appears to be very weak; good thing though your tank is rather lightly stocked. IMHO, charcoal is a waste and IDK what "ammom-rid" is. Is it some kind of bio-media? Does it have a very large surface to house a lot of good bacteria? Is there a substrate? Do you vacuum?

It is not only nitrates that accumulate without water changes (you may have denitrifying bacteria in your substrate by now that convert nitrate into nitrogen gas) but also salts (your tank may be brackish by now), phosphates, sulfur compounds, etc.

If my input is not welcome, please, feel free by all means to disregard or tell me you don't need it.
 
Two Aquaclear 110's. One usually has the charcoal bag, and the other an ammom-rid. I realize that my practice had not been the "norm", yet I have had the same fish for 8 years now. They are large though and it is possible that they got acclimated to these conditions, whereas a new (much smaller) fish cannot handle it.
You're probably right about the chlorine in the past playing a role. I used to pump new water into the tank, then let some out, and repeat...so it was not dechlorinated. All the other fish had no effect from this, except like i said the large RTC showed some signs.(if i would do more than 10% change). Anything less, no problem. Nowadays when i have been topping off the tank, it is with a 5 gal bucket and a capful of StressCoat, so I can at least say the water is now dechlorinated that i put in. (trouble is, i never took any out)

chlorine has little to no effect on the fish but it kills off the beneficial bacteria which and causes spikes while the filter cycle stabalizes again. The 2 fish you have now just have a high tolerance, although most cSA cichlids will devlope "HITH" in those conditions. Pleco's well those things can tolerate some horribly high nitrate levels.

Again just because they are surviving this those are horrible living conditions doesnt mean it's having no effect , I'm sur they will have shortened lives as a result and no most fish wont survive those conditions, hence the problems your having with cat's.

I really encourage you too start doing water changes before something goes wrong, do them properly use dechloinator and you wont have the problems you had in the past. I know it's hard to believe when you've had such a long stretch without problems but then again that's not really true new since the new additions dying off is warning you something wrong with the tank it will eventually catch up with those tough fish as well.
 
I'm really surprised that you're under the impression that "chlorine has little to no effect on fish."

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I agree totally except for this:

I thought it is common knowledge too that chlorine is bad for fish (regardless of the BBs) and chloramine is even worse.

Here is a quick example of what chlorine does to a fish at what concentrations: http://www.pondplace.com/dangersofchlorine.aspx


Poor wording on my part, Chlorine is of course harmful to fish but it does take fairly high concentrations or prolonged exposure to do and real harm.

What meant was that the issue he ran into were likely not related to the chlorine effecting his fish as much as the chlorine would effect his biological filtration. The amount of chlorine in tap water especially diluted with the existing water in a water change is not going to do any harm to a fish and it would dissipate fairly quickly but it could be enough to kill off beneficial bacteria and through off your the biological filtration causing harmful ammonia spikes.

chloramine is different , they dont use it here so i dont know as much about it but I believe it may be a more of a problem, it would defiantly effect the filters the same way or worse, but it doesn't dissipate like chlorine and I have no idea what levels are commonly used in tap water.
 
Thanks, Devon.

[1] This does not pertain directly but I found this interesting and somewhat relevant: from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_chlorination: When dissolved in water, chlorine converts to an equilibrium mixture of chlorine, hypochlorous acid (HOCl), and hydrochloric acid (HCl):

Cl2 + H2O <--> HOCl + HCl

In acidic solution, the major species are Cl2 and HOCl while in alkaline solution effectively only ClO- is present. Very small concentrations of ClO2-, ClO3-, ClO4- are also found.

Sodium salt of HOCl is, of course, the bleach - NaOCl = Sodium Hypochlorite .

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[2] From the link above (http://www.pondplace.com/dangersofchlorine.aspx):

Here are example chlorine levels and what they can do to pond fish:

.006 mg/L will kill fish fry in about two days.
.003 mg/L will kill insect larvae, such as dragonflies.
.002 mg/L will fatally damage the sensitive skin on tadpoles, frogs, salamanders and other amphibians.
.01 mg/L is the maximum level that experts say adult fish can tolerate.
.25 mg/L is the level at which only the hardiest koi or other pond fish can survive.
.37 mg/L is the level at which all pond fish will die.

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[3] From WHO's Measuring chlorine levels in water supplies http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/publications/2011/tn11_chlorine_levels_en.pdf

-- Water requires 2.0 mg/L of chlorine to destroy all organisms.
-- Chlorine needs at least 30 minutes contact time with water to disinfect it.
-- The optimum chlorine residual in a small, communal water supply is in the range of 0.2 to 0.5mg/L.

Free chlorine chart.PNG

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[4] From Free Chlorine Testing (also known as chlorine residual, free chlorine residual, residual chlorine) in drinking water: http://www.cdc.gov/safewater/chlorine-residual-testing.html

.... the goal of infrastructure-based (piped) water treatment systems, whose aim is effective disinfection at the endpoints (i.e., water taps) of the system: defined by the WHO (1993) as: "a residual concentration of free chlorine of greater than or equal to 0.5 mg/L (0.5 ppm or parts per million) after at least 30 minutes contact time at pH less than 8.0." This definition is only appropriate when users drink water directly from the flowing tap. A free chlorine level of 0.5 mg/L of free chlorine will be enough residual to maintain the quality of water through the distribution network, but is most likely not adequate to maintain the quality of the water when this water is stored in the home in a bucket or jerry can for 24 hours.

... the Safe Water Supply (SWS) Program recommends for dosage testing that:
--- At 30 minutes after the addition of sodium hypochlorite (or chlorine) there should be no more than 2.0 mg/L of free chlorine present (this ensures the water does not have an unpleasant taste or odor).
-- At 24 hours after the addition of sodium hypochlorite to containers that are used by families to store water there should be a minimum of 0.2 mg/L of free chlorine present (this ensures microbiologically safe water)...
-- The SWS Program methodology leads to free chlorine levels that are significantly lower than the WHO guideline value for free chlorine in drinking water, which is 0.5 mg/L value.

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I trust your experience with tap water in Canada but I am trying to reconcile these statements:

".01 mg/L is the maximum level that experts say adult fish can tolerate.
.25 mg/L is the level at which only the hardiest koi or other pond fish can survive.
.37 mg/L is the level at which all pond fish will die."

and

"The optimum chlorine residual in a small, communal water supply is in the range of 0.2 to 0.5mg/L."

I guess that the residual chlorine in your tap water MUST BE well below 0.01 mg/L?

Free chlorine chart.PNG
 
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